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Thread: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

  1. #31
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    And your point is...

    You are missing it completely. The simple question is Joey Votto worth 8/199 from 2015 forward? If not, the Reds have an issue. The magnitude of the issue is open for debate, but it seems to be looking worse and worse with each passing summer.

    Small market, mid-market doesn't matter. This will have a major impact on budget planning for every Reds team assembled from 2015-2022.
    We don't know yet. He had a very productive 2013 ("only" 24 HRs, "only" 30 doubles, "only 135 walks", and has been sidelined much of 2014.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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  3. #32
    "So Fla Red"
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by villain612 View Post
    I'm not thrilled that Votto is hurt right now...but I do know that between 2009-2013, Joey Votto led all of MLB in wRC+. Instead of waiting till he became a free agent to bid for his services amongst 29 other teams, the front office decided to be proactive and sign the guy to a long term extension a year early. It's easy to look back now and say how dumb that decision was since he's on the DL now, but how about giving Castellini credit for putting his money where his mouth is and ponying up the dough to keep top level talent in Cincinnati for the rest of his career. Besides, it's his money, not yours.
    I'm not saying the decision at the time was dumb. It was widely panned by most in the national media and here as a major roll of the dice for a mid to smaller market team. The dollars paid were at best fair market value, if not a slight market overpay. The Reds expected Joey to clean up during the front end of the contract. That simply hasn't happened due to injuries.

    Dang, it's not my money? I always love this response - the old cliche and the unlimited ATM argument that a bad contract has no impact on the franchise. All along I thought it was my money, whew I feel so much better

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    Hubba (07-25-2014)

  5. #33
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Just look at the Dodgers and see what kind of production they are getting from Kemp, Ethier, Crawford and Ramirez. And how many millions do they have tied in these players and how they desperately are trying to unload Kemp, Ethier and Crawford? Dodgers can spend their money out of trouble. The Reds can't. The return in value after you sign a player to a longterm deal (already mentioned) is more negative than positive. The financial restraints have shown this season with a weak bench. What happens when Latos and Leake hit free agency? And down the road when Frazier and Mesorasco become arbitration eligible and they approach free agency. Bottom line is Votto's contract gets bigger each passing year and they will still be paying on Phillips. It isn't how much money you are spending but how you're spending it on a roster. If we can't get a decent bench now because of financial restraints, what's this team going to look like 3 to five years from now?
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

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    Hubba (07-25-2014)

  7. #34
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    The Reds organization is much improved from when they signed Griffey to that deal.We have a much better team as well.

  8. #35
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Both sides of the argument are speculating. It's just too soon to tell.

    The guys with big contracts could have great years in the future and lead the team to great things. Or they could all be on the DL for the next five years and barely contribute. We just don't know yet.

    And frankly we don't really know the impact of these deals on the Reds' finances and ability to acquire other players.

    It's rank speculation, both pro and con. What we do know is that all three big contract players are relatively young (or young enough) and hopefully will be productive going forward.

    This is like the debate over the Rolen/EE/Stewart trade or the Francisco/Hoover trade. First it seemed one team "won" then it maybe switched, then maybe switched again, but maybe not. Fluid situations require patience to see. Let's see on these LTCs with the passage of time.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-24-2014 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #36
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by PTjvs View Post
    To be fair Doug, I think you would probably argue that the Reds ARE way overpaying him for the utility they are getting, since he is being used as closer.

    jvs
    Argue maybe, but not successfully.

  10. #37
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    FWIW, notwithstanding the ;arge amount of injuries we've had this season, if Votto had simply been Votto all year I have little doubt we'd be in first place.

  11. #38
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    I think someone on the Reds angered Jobu.
    I think reds44 drank his rum...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    reds44 (07-25-2014)

  13. #39
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
    Just look at the Dodgers and see what kind of production they are getting from Kemp, Ethier, Crawford and Ramirez. And how many millions do they have tied in these players and how they desperately are trying to unload Kemp, Ethier and Crawford? Dodgers can spend their money out of trouble. The Reds can't. The return in value after you sign a player to a longterm deal (already mentioned) is more negative than positive. The financial restraints have shown this season with a weak bench. What happens when Latos and Leake hit free agency? And down the road when Frazier and Mesorasco become arbitration eligible and they approach free agency. Bottom line is Votto's contract gets bigger each passing year and they will still be paying on Phillips. It isn't how much money you are spending but how you're spending it on a roster. If we can't get a decent bench now because of financial restraints, what's this team going to look like 3 to five years from now?

    Why do the Reds have a weak bench? I'm not trying to single you out because it is posted over and over and over on this board. What team has 5 all star caliber players sitting on their bench ready to fill in as soon as injuries start? Schumaker, Pena, Santiago, Heisey are not terrible bench players. They have all been over exposed because they're starting far too frequently but that is basically what defines a bench player.

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    Old school 1983 (07-24-2014), tomnuetten (07-24-2014), villain612 (07-24-2014)

  15. #40
    I don't want to grow up Red Raindog's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    $25 million here, $25 million there, pretty soon you're talking about some real money.

    All is not lost. Let's play some more games. Baseball can be a funny game.
    Everett Dirksen --- one of my favs -- even though he said he was misquoted and only said "a billion here a billion there" but the new quote was too good to deny --
    The older I get - the better I was

    and yes - I hate the Cardinals (Reds fan since 1958)

  16. #41
    There's no Walt only Zuul villain612's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    The Reds received no discount on arb years or FA dollars from Votto or BP's contract - unlike smart deals such as Bruce and Cueto. So as a small/mid market they paid market value and above while locking themselves into bad LTC's on the wrong side of 30.
    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    I'm not saying the decision at the time was dumb.
    Are you sure?
    Last edited by villain612; 07-24-2014 at 10:29 PM.
    "That ball is FAIR! Cincinnati's ahead 2 games to none!" - the last World Series game played in Cincinnati

  17. #42
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    And the gum smacks are the pulse they'll follow if their walkman fades...

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    westofyou (07-24-2014)

  19. #43
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by villain612 View Post
    Are you sure?
    I still can't get over that it's not my money...

    You are confusing risk vs dumb. Although one could think the almost universally dismal history of recent market defining MLB contracts was overlooked by mgmt

    The Reds played a bold, but very risky hand with this one. So far the draw hasn't been particularly fruitful and a massive amount of Bob's chips are left out on the table hoping the flop turns out at least reasonably well.

  20. #44
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    And the gum smacks are the pulse they'll follow if their walkman fades...
    Don't worry, we're in no hurry, school's out, what did you expect?

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    Superdude (07-25-2014)

  22. #45
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    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Several folks mention the loaded roster and tons of talent on the team. It sure doesn't feel that way. Not even if all were healthy would I call this roster loaded and comparatively over talented to other NL contenders. Too many players with too many holes in their game on this team. It's an average team with a shot at greatness but only a shot. Now with all the injuries... A long shot.
    Last edited by powersackers; 07-25-2014 at 12:25 AM.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.


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