Turn Off Ads?
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 94

Thread: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

  1. #46
    Member kbrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,401

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    Several folks mention the loaded roster and tons of talent on the team. It sure doesn't feel that way. Not even if all were healthy would I call this roster loaded and comparatively over talented to other NL contenders. Too many players with too many holes in their game on this team. It's an average team with a shot at greatness but only a shot. Now with all the injuries... A long shot.
    Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Frazier, Hamilton, Mesoraco, Cueto, Chapman, Latos, Bailey, Leake is an above average team. 3 of the last 4 years playoffs. 3 of the last 4 years 91, 97, 90 wins. I don't know how anyone can call this an "average" roster with a straight face. If Chapman alone had not taken a line drive off the face this team would have likely won several games in April that slipped away because the likes of JJ Hoover were busy closing.

  2. Likes:

    Old school 1983 (07-27-2014)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #47
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,146

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake View Post
    Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Frazier, Hamilton, Mesoraco, Cueto, Chapman, Latos, Bailey, Leake is an above average team. 3 of the last 4 years playoffs. 3 of the last 4 years 91, 97, 90 wins. I don't know how anyone can call this an "average" roster with a straight face. If Chapman alone had not taken a line drive off the face this team would have likely won several games in April that slipped away because the likes of JJ Hoover were busy closing.
    but bruce is too streaky!!!1
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  5. #48
    Member powersackers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,477

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    OPS+ and ERA+ justify my straight face. Votto 123, Bruce 93, Phillips 94, Frazier 129, Hamilton 102, Mes 155, Cueto 170, Champman 156, Latos 118, Bailey 88, Leake 99. That's 7 above average players you named on the roster. Simon, Broxton and little used Lecure make 10.

    NL teams with players above 100 ERA+/OPS+
    Brewers: 14
    Cardinals: 14
    Pirates: 14
    Nationals: 19
    Braves: 13
    Giants: 14
    Dodgers: 15

    I'm not making this stuff up. Comparatively this is not a roster that performs like it's loaded or more talented than it's peers.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  6. #49
    Member kbrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,401

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    OPS+ and ERA+ justify my straight face. Votto 123, Bruce 93, Phillips 94, Frazier 129, Hamilton 102, Mes 155, Cueto 170, Champman 156, Latos 118, Bailey 88, Leake 99. That's 7 above average players you named on the roster. Simon, Broxton and little used Lecure make 10.

    NL teams with players above 100 ERA+/OPS+
    Brewers: 14
    Cardinals: 14
    Pirates: 14
    Nationals: 19
    Braves: 13
    Giants: 14
    Dodgers: 15

    I'm not making this stuff up. Comparatively this is not a roster that performs like it's loaded or more talented than it's peers.
    The Brewers have the best record in the National League and are 6 games in front of the Reds. Let's compare their injuries this season to the Reds.

    Milwaukee Brewers 15 day DL

    Brandon Kintzler
    Logan Schafer
    Jim Henderson
    Ryan Braun
    Aramis Ramirez
    Tyler Thornburg

    Cincinnati Reds

    Sean Marshall
    Aroldis Chapman
    Devin Mesoraco
    Mat Latos
    Skip Schumaker
    Jonathan Broxton
    Devin Mesoraco
    Tony Cingrani
    Jay Bruce
    Joey Votto
    Sean Marshall
    Joey Votto
    Brandon Phillips
    Logan Ondrusek


    You really think if those are even some what similar list the Reds are not dead even or ahead of the Brewers?

  7. Likes:

    Chuckie (07-25-2014),Old school 1983 (07-27-2014),villain612 (07-25-2014)

  8. #50
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,146

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    OPS+ and ERA+ justify my straight face. Votto 123, Bruce 93, Phillips 94, Frazier 129, Hamilton 102, Mes 155, Cueto 170, Champman 156, Latos 118, Bailey 88, Leake 99. That's 7 above average players you named on the roster. Simon, Broxton and little used Lecure make 10.

    NL teams with players above 100 ERA+/OPS+
    Brewers: 14
    Cardinals: 14
    Pirates: 14
    Nationals: 19
    Braves: 13
    Giants: 14
    Dodgers: 15

    I'm not making this stuff up. Comparatively this is not a roster that performs like it's loaded or more talented than it's peers.
    We are looking at ERA+ and OPS+ of over 100, right? That appears to be your Reds criteria. Heading into today's action, I count 13 for Milwaukee, 12 for Pittsburgh, 12 for St. Louis, 17 for Washington, 11 for Atlanta, 13 for LA, 12 for SF.


    Am I misunderstanding something?

    Edit: Ah, I see the problem. When I sort via BR, it doesn't include bench players.
    Last edited by Tom Servo; 07-25-2014 at 01:22 AM.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  9. #51
    Member powersackers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,477

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake View Post
    The Brewers have the best record in the National League and are 6 games in front of the Reds. Let's compare their injuries this season to the Reds.

    Milwaukee Brewers 15 day DL

    Brandon Kintzler
    Logan Schafer
    Jim Henderson
    Ryan Braun
    Aramis Ramirez
    Tyler Thornburg

    Cincinnati Reds

    Sean Marshall
    Aroldis Chapman
    Devin Mesoraco
    Mat Latos
    Skip Schumaker
    Jonathan Broxton
    Devin Mesoraco
    Tony Cingrani
    Jay Bruce
    Joey Votto
    Sean Marshall
    Joey Votto
    Brandon Phillips
    Logan Ondrusek


    You really think if those are even some what similar list the Reds are not dead even or ahead of the Brewers?
    If we had 8 less injuries or the Brewers had 8 more injuries, would we be even is what you're asking. Heck I don't know, what I do know is looking at the production, we under produce ever other NL contender. Say you're right and Marshall, Schumaker, Cingrani, Bruce, Marshall, Phillips and Ondrusek were playing like they "should" at or above league average to their peers you could be right. We'd be a top 4 talented/loaded NL team. Fair enough. Being hypothetical isn't my thing.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  10. #52
    Member kbrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,401

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    If we had 8 less injuries or the Brewers had 8 more injuries, would we be even is what you're asking. Heck I don't know, what I do know is looking at the production, we under produce ever other NL contender. Say you're right and Marshall, Schumaker, Cingrani, Bruce, Marshall, Phillips and Ondrusek were playing like they "should" at or above league average to their peers you could be right. We'd be a top 4 talented/loaded NL team. Fair enough. Being hypothetical isn't my thing.
    It isn't about the number of injuries it is about who has been injured. The Brewers have had literally 2 injuries all year that were to important players. The Reds have had at LEAST 8. The Brewers have had a solid 100 games and have some guys putting up good numbers. The Reds have a roster that at its core has been well above average for 4 years. I just don't understand the Brewers having some incredible and elite roster while the Reds is just average.

  11. #53
    Member kbrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,401

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Also the idea that OPS+ is your be all end all for deciding who has an elite position player roster doesn't take into account defense. And the fact is the Brewers, as a team, play defense at a Little League level. The Reds don't have the OPS+ but they are light years ahead defensively.

  12. #54
    Member Chuckie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,220

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Just pause for a moment and read kbrake's recent posts. He gets it.
    2015 All-Star Game hosts and (probably not) World Series champs

  13. #55
    Member powersackers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,477

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake View Post
    Also the idea that OPS+ is your be all end all for deciding who has an elite position player roster doesn't take into account defense. And the fact is the Brewers, as a team, play defense at a Little League level. The Reds don't have the OPS+ but they are light years ahead defensively.
    I'll bet on a little league defense that a 2nd ranked offense can overcome vs. an elite defense who's offense is 12th of 15 in the league scoring runs. And I'll raise you 6 games and a division lead to prove it.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  14. #56
    Member kbrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,401

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    I'll bet on a little league defense that a 2nd ranked offense can overcome vs. an elite defense who's offense is 12th of 15 in the league scoring runs. And I'll raise you 6 games and a division lead to prove it.
    If all things were equal you would have a point but they haven't been. You think if Votto and Mesoraco had been healthy all year or only missed 15 games their offensive numbers would be better? I'm not saying the Reds are soooooo much better. I'm saying the idea the Brewers have an elite roster and the Reds have an average one is laughable.

  15. #57
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    6,070

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Joey should just retire so the Reds can be free of his contract, for the good of the team and the fans of Cincinnati.

    Then....he should disappear for a few years and reappear again armed with a bat made from a tree struck by lightning. Ready to reclaim the glory that should be his.
    All the Reds need is to hire a manager who looks like Wilfred Wimbley or Quimbly. Basically a Gorman Thomas look alike.

  16. #58
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,708

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by steig View Post
    The cardinals have a lower payroll and better team because they front office is smarter, not B Bean smart, but more than anyone working for the Reds
    I've always respected Beane and what he has done to "revolutionize" baseball... though he wasn't the first, nor did he invent the concept of utilizing sabermetrics.... but how many WS's has he won, even taken his team to, since he became the A's GM? He's been to one ALCS (2006). And since then (over the last 8 years) his team has finished below .500 in 4 of those years. Again, the concept of finding value utilizing sabermetrics is solid. And Beane is a good GM. And while sabermetrics has certainly helped small/mid-sized market teams become more competitive, have a fighting chance, there is, IMO, still something "missing" from this approach.

    And smaller market teams aren't he only ones utilizing this approach either. So are the bigger, more lucrative markets (Red Sox, Yankees). And bigger market teams are still dominating when it comes to WS victories. One has to go back to 2003 (Marlins) to find where a small market team last won a WS, and they didn't do so simply by relying solely on sabermetrics.

    My point is.... teams that win WS still have to spend and "complement" that roster with established, even "superstar", and yes, high-salaried, players, to a degree. Teams that win either have them on their roster and retain them ... or... go out, spend the money, and get them.

    I remember the Lindner years when a majority use to complain, and rightly so, that this organization was too cheap, too small-market minded (it was an easy excuse), and wouldn't - other then the Jr contract -spend any money to retain/build a competitive, winning team and bring some sort of stability with some solid core players. And we went through years hoping/wondering if we would ever get back to being a .500 club.

    So now we got an owner who has made that commitment, has spent a lot of money to build that core, not on just one player, but several. He's brought some sense of stability. And now all I hear is that they are over-paying. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

    That doesn't mean there isn't (obviously) more to be done, that some changes (improvements) can't/shouldn't be made or attempted to get us to that next level either.

    But the biggest item that has really hurt this team this year has been injuries.

    And no FO can foresee (prevent) that.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  17. Likes:

    Big Klu (07-25-2014),cumberlandreds (07-25-2014),Old school 1983 (07-27-2014)

  18. #59
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Freiburg (Germany)
    Posts
    1,235

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    OPS+ and ERA+ justify my straight face. Votto 123, Bruce 93, Phillips 94, Frazier 129, Hamilton 102, Mes 155, Cueto 170, Champman 156, Latos 118, Bailey 88, Leake 99. That's 7 above average players you named on the roster. Simon, Broxton and little used Lecure make 10.

    NL teams with players above 100 ERA+/OPS+
    Brewers: 14
    Cardinals: 14
    Pirates: 14
    Nationals: 19
    Braves: 13
    Giants: 14
    Dodgers: 15

    I'm not making this stuff up. Comparatively this is not a roster that performs like it's loaded or more talented than it's peers.
    1) you take this season as example while the guy who said that the reds have a "loaded" roster if everyone is healthy. Looking at the DL history this season Iīll question that the reds are healthy this season....

    2) you donīt care about defense do you? ops+ and era+ is fine but you donīt see the complete picture with those stats..

    3) (is a mix with one) it is a bit of a "small" sample size.. 100 games are not that few, but players in a career year or in a down year look worse/better than they have been in the past and will (likely) be in the future.. Simon and Broxton for example are overperforming (imo), I believe the same is true for rocco and billy... Bruce, Votto (when healthy), Latos, Bailey are underperforming and better going forward
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

  19. #60
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,624

    Re: Reds Have No One But Themselves To Blame

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I've always respected Beane and what he has done to "revolutionize" baseball... though he wasn't the first, nor did he invent the concept of utilizing sabermetrics.... but how many WS's has he won, even taken his team to, since he became the A's GM? He's been to one ALCS (2006). And since then (over the last 8 years) his team has finished below .500 in 4 of those years. Again, the concept of finding value utilizing sabermetrics is solid. And Beane is a good GM. And while sabermetrics has certainly helped small/mid-sized market teams become more competitive, have a fighting chance, there is, IMO, still something "missing" from this approach.

    And smaller market teams aren't he only ones utilizing this approach either. So are the bigger, more lucrative markets (Red Sox, Yankees). And bigger market teams are still dominating when it comes to WS victories. One has to go back to 2003 (Marlins) to find where a small market team last won a WS, and they didn't do so simply by relying solely on sabermetrics.

    My point is.... teams that win WS still have to spend and "complement" that roster with established, even "superstar", and yes, high-salaried, players, to a degree. Teams that win either have them on their roster and retain them ... or... go out, spend the money, and get them.

    I remember the Lindner years when a majority use to complain, and rightly so, that this organization was too cheap, too small-market minded (it was an easy excuse), and wouldn't - other then the Jr contract -spend any money to retain/build a competitive, winning team and bring some sort of stability with some solid core players. And we went through years hoping/wondering if we would ever get back to being a .500 club.

    So now we got an owner who has made that commitment, has spent a lot of money to build that core, not on just one player, but several. He's brought some sense of stability. And now all I hear is that they are over-paying. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

    That doesn't mean there isn't (obviously) more to be done, that some changes (improvements) can't/shouldn't be made or attempted to get us to that next level either.

    But the biggest item that has really hurt this team this year has been injuries.

    And no FO can foresee (prevent) that.
    You forgot one thing, GAC: it's kinda important to spend the money wisely.

    And IF Walt doesn't make a move to improve the Reds playoff chances because they "don't have the money" than that's just further proof that he isn't spending Castellini's money wisely.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25