Serial

[RedEye]

He could still know what happened to Hae without his story about Adnan being true.

The cops could have told him too...although I find that unlikely.

What I have difficulty getting is Jay's motivation in all this. The bit about protecting his grandma just seems half-baked to me -- but I also don't get why he would do anything else in the story. He has no reason to kill Hae, obviously, and he also doesn't seem to have any particular reason to go after Adnan with false accusations. Despite the weak evidence (and as a juror I would definitely have to acquit him) I am struggling to see any other real suspects here other than Adnan. Could it perhaps have been something to do with drugs? Perhaps Adnan and Jay were in deep in the drug trade and Hae threatened to expose them?

[Razor Shines]

Don't worry I'm re-watching The Wire, I'll have this figured out soon.

[BuckeyeRed27]

What I have difficulty getting is Jay's motivation in all this. The bit about protecting his grandma just seems half-baked to me -- but I also don't get why he would do anything else in the story. He has no reason to kill Hae, obviously, and he also doesn't seem to have any particular reason to go after Adnan with false accusations. Despite the weak evidence (and as a juror I would definitely have to acquit him) I am struggling to see any other real suspects here other than Adnan. Could it perhaps have been something to do with drugs? Perhaps Adnan and Jay were in deep in the drug trade and Hae threatened to expose them?

That's my theory. It was completely drug related and Jay is protecting himself and covering for someone else.

[RedEye]

That's my theory. It was completely drug related and Jay is protecting himself and covering for someone else.

It really has to be something like that. And perhaps Adnan was a little naive at the time and left himself exposed. Jay and whoever else was involved pounced to blame it on him. That would also explain why Jay was so terrified about what was going to happen when he was working at the porn shop.

[dabvu2498]

He could still know what happened to Hae without his story about Adnan being true.

The cops could have told him too...although I find that unlikely.

Right. Don't disagree at all. But it pretty much eliminates "serial killer" from the equation.

[dabvu2498]

Despite what Jay says about himself (kinda), I don't see him as a big-time drug dealer. No car. No cell phone. And it would appear that he and Adnan, et al, spent a lot of time looking for weed for personal use.

To make Jay a prime suspect, it almost has to be a relationship thing. And Adnan's lawyer spent a lot of time trying to get to that point at trial, did she nooooootttt?

I can almost envision a scenario where Jay and Adnan's roles are reversed in this case. Jay kills Hae then goes to Adnan for help since Adnan was the link. Adnan may have bought Jay's schtick about Jay being "connected" and agreed to help. Then the police come knocking and Jay pins it on Adnan while Adnan remains loyal to the Code of the Street. I can almost buy that.

[RedEye]

Despite what Jay says about himself (kinda), I don't see him as a big-time drug dealer. No car. No cell phone. And it would appear that he and Adnan, et al, spent a lot of time looking for weed for personal use.

To make Jay a prime suspect, it almost has to be a relationship thing. And Adnan's lawyer spent a lot of time trying to get to that point at trial, did she nooooootttt?

I can almost envision a scenario where Jay and Adnan's roles are reversed in this case. Jay kills Hae then goes to Adnan for help since Adnan was the link. Adnan may have bought Jay's schtick about Jay being "connected" and agreed to help. Then the police come knocking and Jay pins it on Adnan while Adnan remains loyal to the Code of the Street. I can almost buy that.

Have you ever listened to the podcast "Crime Writers on Serial"? It might be the first podcast I've ever listened to about a podcast. Anyway, one of the hosts has the theory that there must have been a third person involved -- one that both Adnan and Jay were perhaps secondary to in the crime. One that scares the crap out of Jay and that Adnan does his best to please at the time.

One thing that always sticks out to me from the story is when Adnan sees Jay at the trial and mutters "pathetic" under his breath. That's the kind of thing that one teen says to another teen who is weak or who spills the beans. For some reason, I can't get that out of my head, because Adnan to me seems like a stronger person, one who wouldn't crack for the police, unlike Jay. I have the sense that Adnan didn't do the murder, but that he was deeply involved, and maybe that's why he's ultimately sort of okay with being in jail (it casts his whole "Why do you think I'm a nice person?" episode in a different light as well). That is to say, maybe Adnan doesn't consider himself completely innocent, but just innocent of the crime he was convicted for. Thoughts?

[dabvu2498]

Have you ever listened to the podcast "Crime Writers on Serial"? It might be the first podcast I've ever listened to about a podcast. Anyway, one of the hosts has the theory that there must have been a third person involved -- one that both Adnan and Jay were perhaps secondary to in the crime. One that scares the crap out of Jay and that Adnan does his best to please at the time.

One thing that always sticks out to me from the story is when Adnan sees Jay at the trial and mutters "pathetic" under his breath. That's the kind of thing that one teen says to another teen who is weak or who spills the beans. For some reason, I can't get that out of my head, because Adnan to me seems like a stronger person, one who wouldn't crack for the police, unlike Jay. I have the sense that Adnan didn't do the murder, but that he was deeply involved, and maybe that's why he's ultimately sort of okay with being in jail (it casts his whole "Why do you think I'm a nice person?" episode in a different light as well). That is to say, maybe Adnan doesn't consider himself completely innocent, but just innocent of the crime he was convicted for. Thoughts?

I have thoughts!

1.) I heard the first episode of the podcast you mentioned but didn't keep up. The Serial Spoiler podcast was pretty good though.

2.) I agree with most of your main points. Jay's involvement in committing the crime, while not crystal clear in detail, is obvious. He was in on it, in some way, shape or form. Jay pinned the worst of the crime on Adnan. If, someway or somehow, Adnan wasn't involved AND if Adnan had an airtight alibi, Jay's screwed... He's the murderer in the eyes of law enforcement. I don't think Jay is that lucky. He knew Adnan didn't have an airtight alibi.

3.) As far as a third person goes, I wonder about motive... What would the motive have been for that person? Adnan doesn't really help in that department. He has no alternate theories (that he's willing to share anyway). His stock answer is "I don't know." I know a person is presumed innocent and doesn't have to prove that someone else did it in order to gain an acquittal. However, anyone who's spent time with juries knows better. And the closest Adnan and his lawyers have come was alluding to Jay cheating on Stephanie, perhaps giving him some motive if Hae knew. However, I've never heard Adnan make that link himself.

4.) I think you're right that Adnan has accepted his fate, maybe partially, because he was involved. If he helped dispose of the body or knows more of the story than he's willing to tell, he ultimately feels some responsibility for what happened.

5.) Adnan's "pathetic" comment was clearly a shot at Jay being a snitch. There are a million ways to interpret it beyond that.

[RedEye]

3.) As far as a third person goes, I wonder about motive... What would the motive have been for that person? Adnan doesn't really help in that department. He has no alternate theories (that he's willing to share anyway). His stock answer is "I don't know." I know a person is presumed innocent and doesn't have to prove that someone else did it in order to gain an acquittal. However, anyone who's spent time with juries knows better. And the closest Adnan and his lawyers have come was alluding to Jay cheating on Stephanie, perhaps giving him some motive if Hae knew. However, I've never heard Adnan make that link himself.

To me, Episode 12 opened this can of worms big time. We spent all season thinking about what happened between 2:15 and 2:36 on January 13th, and we never really thought about what Jay and Adnan were doing before that time. But when Julie, the producer, double checked on the phone records, it was pretty clear that at least the cell phone was downtown in the morning while Hae was at school -- and nowhere near where Jay said they were (shopping for a gift). I don't think Adnan admitted to remembering anything that morning, which just makes speculation stronger. In any case, we know that Jay and Adnan have drugs in common (and that's really it). What if they were actually into dealing drugs, or were getting involved in some harder stuff than just pot? That would make it highly possible that they were in communication with someone far more nefarious than either of them (the co-called "West Side hitman" that Jay mysteriously told Josh about?) If that guy was tough, that would also explain Jay being scared out of his mind and Adnan being so tight-lipped about where he was for fear of crossing their mystery co-conspirator...

... and then if Hae, an assertive and honest young woman, saw something or heard something she wasn't supposed to... I dunno.

[dabvu2498]

I don't think Adnan admitted to remembering anything that morning, which just makes speculation stronger.

And that's an enormous part of the problem... Adnan does very little to refute Jay's story, except to say "wasnt me."

If there was a third person involved, and these two kids were that scared of him, it's likely he would've ordered them to kill her, no? It's not likely that he would've gotten his own hands dirty. And even if he had, why strangulation? In broad daylight? Why not wait til she was alone, in the dark, and shoot her? And if they were "ordered" to kill her, the Adnan's still a murderer and Jay got off light.

And... If Jay and Adnan were part of some bigger criminal enterprise, wouldn't they have had guns, or access to guns? Wouldn't that have been easier for them also? I can't wrap my mind about them being big-time criminals given their lack of marijuana. Marijuana just isn't that hard to find, particularly in a large metro area, if you have the "connections" that we're alleging.

Were any other finger/handprints (specifically Jay's) found in Hae's car? Or was there evidence that the car was wiped down (except for Adnan's prints)? Obviously his prints don't prove that he did murder, but with the evidence that the murder did happen in the car, lack of other confirm-able prints leaves us with...

I will say this for sure... I don't think Adnan premeditated the killing. He left too many trails about wanting a ride from Hae after school. I think Jay embellished that part to increase suspicion and provide motive.

[Razor Shines]

I also can't see Jay or Adnan being some type of big time criminals or mixed up with any. I think there's a lot to Jay liking to tell stories and make it seem like he was some type of big time criminal.

It's possible that Jay enjoyed being part of this story. Maybe he was excited to talk to the cops, being involved in this is the closest he's ever been to being into some type of big crime. Maybe Adnan killing Hae was a spur of the moment crime of passion type thing, he tells Jay and Jay offers his help instead of Adnan forcing him to help. Maybe this is crazy but what if Jay was excited to be involved in the disposal of the body and then after a period of time was just as excited to go talk to the cops and be the star witness.

That could be completely ridiculous but I don't think its more ridiculous than anything else in this case.

[RedEye]

So I'm hearing you guys say that you kinda think Adnan did it. I think he was definitely involved, but I'm not sure. I don't think the third individual would have had to be someone that high up in the drug trade. I'm just speculating that it was someone older that Adnan and Jay were deferential to. Maybe it wasn't a person who ordered Hae dead necessarily -- just someone that the boys were scared enough of to make them act rashly.

[Razor Shines]

So I'm hearing you guys say that you kinda think Adnan did it. I think he was definitely involved, but I'm not sure. I don't think the third individual would have had to be someone that high up in the drug trade. I'm just speculating that it was someone older that Adnan and Jay were deferential to. Maybe it wasn't a person who ordered Hae dead necessarily -- just someone that the boys were scared enough of to make them act rashly.

I really just don't see it. Something, whispers...anything would have had to come out about this third person. With all the attention this case has gotten somebody would have said something by now, IMO. But who knows, maybe you're right.

[RedEye]

I really just don't see it. Something, whispers...anything would have had to come out about this third person. With all the attention this case has gotten somebody would have said something by now, IMO. But who knows, maybe you're right.

I don't blame you. I'm admittedly grasping at straws here. It is such a confounding case though. It just makes no sense.

[dabvu2498]

I think it makes sense as a crime of passion and not premeditated. Happens more than most of us care to realize, unfortunately.