Pedro, Johnson & Smoltz are no brainers and 1st ballot guys.
Others I'd add would be Biggio, Bagwell & Raines. I'm still leaning towards keeping the PED guys out. (and I don't count Biggio or Bagwell in that group)
Pedro, Johnson & Smoltz are no brainers and 1st ballot guys.
Others I'd add would be Biggio, Bagwell & Raines. I'm still leaning towards keeping the PED guys out. (and I don't count Biggio or Bagwell in that group)
Some writers would say that Raines' cocaine use taints him. (I don't agree with that assessment, but it is an opinion that's out there.)Originally Posted by Dan
Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.
Some writers may say that, but it is crazy and inconsistent. Tim Raines's cocaine use was illegal, but so was Babe Ruth's alcohol consumption during prohibition in the 1920s-do we kick the Babe out of the HOF?
I am a pretty straight arrow, but I have about reached the point of rejecting all of the moralizing about the supposed virtues and vices of candidates for the HOF. Unless we want to limit the HOF to the number of players who could fit in a phone booth, we need to realize that its members are going to be gifted athletes who were flawed human beings.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
*BaseClogger* (12-23-2014),Always Red (12-26-2014),Big Klu (12-19-2014),Number_Fourteen (12-20-2014),redsmetz (12-19-2014),Revering4Blue (12-30-2014),WrongVerb (12-19-2014)
Babe Ruth's off-field stuff did hurt him...it's just that he was also the greatest, most influential player of all time...which kind of overwhelmed all that. You're talking about Tim Raines, a guy on the bubble at best.
I agree, but involvement in the Pittsburgh Drug Trials has been mentioned as a factor in the failed HOF cases for Dave Parker, Vida Blue, and Keith Hernandez.
Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.
Old school 1983 (12-26-2014)
True enough but IMO the Pittsburgh Drug Trials should be irrelevant to their HOF qualifications.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
Big Klu (12-19-2014),RedlegJake (12-20-2014),Revering4Blue (12-30-2014)
Barry Bonds was a Hall of Famer even before he took PED's.
Put him in.
redsfanmia (12-25-2014)
I agree with putting Bonds in the HOF, but not because I know that he was a Hall of Famer even before he took PEDs, in part because we don't know for certain whether, and perhaps more importantly, when he started taking PEDs.
A lot of people believe Bonds started taking PEDs after the 1998 McGwire-Sosa HR battle. That makes sense, as his body seemed to expand to about three times its prior size and, at ages 36 through 39 he became a much, much better hitter than he had ever been in his normal expected prime years. A lot of people also believe that Roger Clemens was a Hall of Famer with the Red Sox before he presumably began taking PEDs as a Yankee and perhaps as early as his years with the Blue Jays. That theory also makes some sense---but we don't know.
I fully expect that voters have elected or will elect to the HOF some player that virtually no one suspected used PEDs. Some people were complimenting Rafael Palmeiro on his passionate testimony rejecting PEDs right up until the time he failed a drug test. There is probably some player who was skinny as a rail and who seemed to be a boy scout who secretly was juicing every day and no one suspects.
I hate the use of PEDs in MLB. I wish the whole PEDs fueled era had never happened. Bonds and Clemens are at the top of my list of MLB players whom I dislike.
However the PEDs era did happen, and during much of the era there was no drug testing and much of the PEDs use violated no MLB rule.
I just do not see how we can get into the weeds of both assuming who did and did not use PEDs in that era, and then further determine which players would have been HOF worthy even if they had not used PEDs.
I still discount their numbers. On their raw numbers Bonds has an excellent argument of being perhaps the greatest hitter ever and Clemens has a similar argument for greatest pitcher status. I still rate them below that. But at this point, I am of the notion of everyone hold their noses and let them in.
I enjoy discussions, even arguments, about whether or not this player's performance on the field makes him worthy of the HOF. I am tired of all of the arguments and assumptions about who did what, and when, and how much, off the field, especially when we don't know and really can never know.
Put Bonds and Clemens in the Hall-they won't be the worst people ever given that distinction.
Last edited by RedsBaron; 12-20-2014 at 06:44 AM.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
I get all the sentiment about PEDs and other character stuff, but IMO the Hall of Fame is becoming irrelevant. Too many of the guys who appear in the top 10 or 20 of the major stat categories are being kept out. Whether we think those guys accumulated those stats fairly or not, they were accumulated in games that counted and the results of those games are still baseball history. The A's three WS appearances with Canseco and McGwire still happened. Barry Bonds did take Pittsburgh and SF to the post-season largely on his back. The 98 home run chase garnered baseball plenty of hype and largely put the stench of cancelling the 94 series behind the game. Roger Clemens was a dominant starter on teams who won a lot because of it. Unless we are going to rewrite all of that history, I just don't see how those guys can be kept out. When it comes to the game on the field, they are major figures and that is what those plaques are for. A borderline guy or two, I could see, but guys with 500+ HRs and pitchers with 300+ wins and 4000+ K's should be in.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
Exactly. If they admitted PED use, put that on their plaque. But they're still influential to the game and still have numbers that won't be eclipsed by many (if any).
I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher.
-Rogers Hornsby
Bonds was the best player in baseball....he and Griffey but McGwire and his cheating friend Sosa stole his limelight....insane the level Bonds got to on PED's
Clemens revived his career and clearly began with the Blue Jays
My ballot would look like this, with apologies to John Smoltz and Jeff Bagwell who are deserving but on a crowdwed ballot need to wait a year or so.
Craig Biggio : 3,000 hits = enshrinement IMO
Tim Raines : One of the top 4 leadoff hitters in the modern era behind only Henderson, Ichiro and Pete Rose.
Mike Piazza : Acne on his back does not make him a PED abuser. Best offensive catcher in MLB history.
Randy Johnson : Should be unanimous
Pedro Martinez : For a 5-6 year period, the best in the game
Curt Schilling : Always hated the guy, but 3,000 K's = enshrinement
Alan Trammell : Every bit as deserving as Barry Larkin or Roberto Alomar. Last year on the ballot.
I will wait for MLB/BBWAA to make a stand on the Bonds, Clemens of the world. That should be an institutional decision.
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
My ballot would probably look like this. I like Biggio but he was never great, I think both Kent and Walker had more greatness in their career than Biggio did. I think Biggio does get in but I don't view him in the same light as the other guys. Would Mussina be considered if he didn't play in NY?
Clemens, Johnson, and Martinez were three of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen. Clemens won't get in because of PED's but he was a generational type pitcher. Bonds was the best player on the field during most of his career, can't keep him out. Smoltz was a great pitcher, great big game pitcher, great closer, IMO the best of the bunch in Atlanta but overshadowed by Maddux. Schilling's numbers may be a little higher than I would like, but he had extended periods of greatness that is hard to overlook.
Only thing I care about this Hall of Fame year is Piazza. Talk about guilt by innuendo.
Guy should have been a first or second ballot Hall of Famer, ridiculous he's not in yet.
Last edited by Kc61; 12-26-2014 at 01:13 PM.
mace (12-29-2014),Old school 1983 (12-26-2014)
Biggio and Kent were contemporaries who played the same position in the same league. Their respective WAR scores (Baseball Reference.com) show Biggio to have been the greater player.
Biggio had a career WAR of 65.1 to Kent's 55.2.
The best five year stretch of Biggio's career was 1995-99, when he put up WAR scores per season of 6.3, 5.5, 9.4, 6.5 and 5.1.
Kent's best five year stretch was 1998-2002 when he put up WAR scores of 4.4, 3.5, 7.2, 5.2 and 7.0.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
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