Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 103

Thread: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

  1. #1
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,943

    Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    and by franchise, I mean the entire organization top to bottom.

    The first thing I have to say, and it saddens me but it's beyond time, Walt Jocketty has to go. I'm eternally grateful for guiding this team towards the only great years they've had since I've had a conscious memory. But he's worked himself into a corner over time, he doesn't appear to be capable of working out of it, he may be the most passive GM in the game, and the hardest thing to say is that it looks like the game has passed him up. I think he's done all he can do here. He has to go.

    Second, and this is where I think I'm really going to get reamed, but is anyone else beginning to get the sinking feeling Bob C. is not the awesome owner most of us believed he was? Again I appreciate everything he's done for the club, but is he really that great, or are we just conditioned to expect less after years of apathetic or inept ownership?

    Because here's the thing: Bob C. does spend money. There is no denying that.

    At the same time...he also has a MAJOR cheap ass streak. And honestly? I think winning comes secondary to marketing when it comes to dollar allocations with this club. Look at who has been extended: Phillips, Votto, Bailey. Phillips was the face of the franchise and Twitter whatever blah blah but an objective analysis says even at the time that deal was not smart. Votto was a good move definitely, no issues there, but was he resigned because he's good or because letting the MVP walk looks bad to customers? I wouldn't have that suspicion if not for Bailey, who, while good and the fan in me is glad he's still here, my head says he was clearly never a 100 million dollar man...but you can't let the guy who tossed two no hitter in back to back years walk either right?

    I don't have faith in Bob anymore. Aside from the flashy big buys, getting him to open the wallet and patch up even minor holes on the team (moneywise) that needed serious addressing seems like pulling teeth. I am absolutely sick of hearing Walt/Castellini say "the money just isn't there." What, you couldn't claim a productive Marlon Byrd when he was freely available despite a suckstorm in left field at the time? And just letting the pen burn like a tire fire? People are coming out to see the Reds again. Money is flowing into MLB like crazy. And yet, when this team is contending yet has glaring holes that CAN be addressed in the middle of the season, what does end up happening?

    This:

    So I don't know...maybe it's just my mood in general but...the shine is off the Reds leadership, in my eyes. I don't have a ton of faith in them anymore. Not none, not 2000s level bad. But...I don't trust them any longer as much as I used to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Game update:

    Jason Marquis

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    56,203

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    They are a competitive team, that's the goal.
    Go Gators!

  4. #3
    Member tomnuetten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Freiburg (Germany)
    Posts
    1,373

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    The biggest problem I have with this franchise is that they donīt try to have a new approach. High power guys are expensive, especially in todays game. Cincinnati canīt afford the best ones => looking for decent power but very low OBP isnīt a great idea.

    Beside Votto nobody gets on base at a great rate. Less basestealing would be aprreciated aswell and please reduce bunting. But Price isnīt going to do it and he has not the players (OBP) to get better results.

    Walt made some good trades in the offseason, but at the same time he had some horrible signings. even worse is that Price fell in love with them
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

  5. #4
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    25,222

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    They are a competitive team, that's the goal.
    I think that is the org's goal. But even by that benchmark, they are falling short. They are basically adrift--not cosmically bad, but like second/third tier teams like Seattle, Cleveland, Minnesota. A splash here and there, some talent to buy a ticket to watch, but not enough.

  6. Likes:

    BluegrassRedleg (04-14-2015)

  7. #5
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    1,563

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    First off, as always, it's 7 games into the season, and winning 4 of every 7 leads to >90 wins in the season. It's been frustrating so far with the nature of the losses, but it kind of is what it is. Honestly, I have been pretty encouraged by some of the players, and feel that the offense has been significantly improved with the re-addition of Votto and the changes to the typical lineup.

    The problem that I see isn't with the extensions that WM mentioned - in general, "face of the franchise" players are going to be your best players and are going to be the ones getting extended. Furthermore, not extending a Votto, Phillips, or Bailey, especially given the state of the Reds' roster both at the time and currently, would have been better evidence of a cheap streak than the given extensions. Just to recap, Votto was a top-10 hitter in the league with an MVP when the extension was signed, Phillips was coming off of a .300/.353/.457 campaign with a gold glove and silver slugger award (and, who was the last meaningful MI prospect that the Reds developed? Nobody was even close to knocking on the door of Phillip's job - and nobody still is), and Bailey was one of four pitchers due to walk after 2015 and had just finished 2013 with a FIP of 3.31 and a fWAR of 4.1. I don't think any of these were significantly objectionable extensions, although it may seem that way 1-3 years later.

    The problem that I see with the roster is that the nearly obsessive fixation on starting pitching is starting to rear its ugly head. After 2015, dots can be connected to Lorenzen and Stephenson joining the rotation, making the "fuzzy math five" Stephenson/Lorenzen/Bailey/Iglesias/Descalfani, but then what happens to promising young pitchers like Moscot, Garrett, Travieso, Howard, et al while your rotation is expected to be full until ~2020? And this fixation on starting pitching is exacerbated by a front office that either doesn't or won't find creative solutions for current roster issues, both at the MLB level and in the minor leagues.

    It's just like FCB said- it isn't a "lost decade" issue where the team is full of trash and needs to be exhumed. The talent exists, but just in some of the wrong places.
    Last edited by Plus Plus; 04-14-2015 at 07:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    The base you want to acquire is home.

  8. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Cincy
    Posts
    1,293

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    I think we're good enough to be in the conversation, but right now we are in a tightly packed cluster of teams that are "maybe contenders if things go right". In order to win from that area, you have to get some breakout years, unexpected contributions, stay healthy, and find ways to sneak out an extra win or 2 any way possible. To do that, you will need your guys on the fringes of the 25 making positive impacts rather than negative ones and your manager/GM being right on a few things. So I guess my main concern is this... do we trust that Walt/Price are the right guys to find value for the last few spots and then utilize the players in a way that maximizes it?

    In theory, I do understand the difference between a good middle reliever and a bad middle reliever won't make or break your playoff chances. If you add it all up though, very real at bats are being wasted on some pretty bad hitters and big innings are being pitched by questionable filler. The resulting losses are the types of things that separate who emerges from the middle pack and which teams do not.

  9. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    15,298

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    It's just where the franchise is right now. All teams have cycles.

    Right now the Reds have an outflow of good veterans. Latos, Broxton, Simon, others.

    They don't want new contracts to replace them, so the inflow is very low cost players and kids.

    Will continue with, likely, Cueto, Leake, maybe Chapman soon on the outflow side.

    Eventually it will be up to younger, cheaper talent to bring the team to new heights. I think that can happen. But right now, the team is losing good players and not spending money to replace them.

    It's a cycle for a mid-market team. Give it awhile. And maybe this year they will have a lucky season and do all right.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-14-2015 at 07:53 AM.

  10. #8
    Member Chuckie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,589

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    This offseason proved how inept the front office has become. They couldn't even decide what their plan was. Were they rebuilding? Sure looked like it when they dealt away Latos and Simon ... and then didn't do anything to improve the club over the next several weeks.

    But then they traded a promising pitching prospect for Marlon Byrd. Then they signed Burke Badenhop. Maybe they were "going for it" after all.

    Nope, they were stuck in the middle without a real plan. And this is team we are left with. Some excellent high end players and a host of guys that should not be on MLB rosters. It's as if with the bullpen Walt and Co. said: "Hey, we have a great closer; maybe we can get by with scrubs to round out the rest of the 'pen."

    Fans on message boards could see it. Think about that. Fans right here on this board said Kevin Gregg shouldn't be on the team, let alone be the set-up man to begin the season. Fans should not have more baseball acumen than the front office brass of the team they follow.
    2015 All-Star Game hosts and (definitely not) World Series champs

  11. #9
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,999

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    96 hrs ago we were printing WS tickets and now people think this franchise is not good anymore.

    Its a marathon and not a sprint.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  12. Likes:

    757690 (04-14-2015),cumberlandreds (04-14-2015),dubc47834 (04-14-2015),OGB (04-14-2015),Old school 1983 (04-14-2015),RadfordVA (04-14-2015),redsmetz (04-14-2015),RiverRat13 (04-14-2015),Tom Servo (04-14-2015),TRF (04-14-2015),villain612 (04-14-2015),westofyou (04-14-2015),WVRedsFan (04-14-2015),_Sir_Charles_ (04-14-2015)

  13. #10
    Member Chuckie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,589

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Everyone knows it's a marathon not a sprint. The question is whether this team is good enough to win the marathon (or at least be one of the few who competes to win).

    I don't think the front office did enough during the offseason to improve the club. What were they thinking constructing this bullpen? Did they really think this pen could hold up during the 162-game marathon?
    2015 All-Star Game hosts and (definitely not) World Series champs

  14. Likes:

    Redhook (04-14-2015)

  15. #11
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,350

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    The problem that I see with the roster is that the nearly obsessive fixation on starting pitching is starting to rear its ugly head. After 2015, dots can be connected to Lorenzen and Stephenson joining the rotation, making the "fuzzy math five" Stephenson/Lorenzen/Bailey/Iglesias/Descalfani, but then what happens to promising young pitchers like Moscot, Garrett, Travieso, Howard, et al while your rotation is expected to be full until ~2020? And this fixation on starting pitching is exacerbated by a front office that either doesn't or won't find creative solutions for current roster issues, both at the MLB level and in the minor leagues.

    It's just like FCB said- it isn't a "lost decade" issue where the team is full of trash and needs to be exhumed. The talent exists, but just in some of the wrong places.
    The Reds are just going to have to take some educated risks with that group of pitching prospects. The reality is some will pan out, others won't. Among that group, we'll probably see a mixed bag ranging from front line starter to mid-rotation starter to converted reliever to total flame out. Which pitchers end up in which bucket remains to be seen. But the Reds will have to correctly identify which pitchers will end up in which buckets. If they're smart, they'll keep the right guys and use the others as trade bait to try to fill some other weaknesses. Timing is also crucial. For the Reds to get premium value out of these guys who might flame out they'll have to unload them before the rest of the league figures out the flame outs.

    Right now we're heavily dependent on Winker being a viable answer in left field. Will he? I'd have to hope so, but it's not guaranteed. After Winker the system is pretty dry on positional players. If Yorman Rodriguez is going to breakout, he needs to do so this year. Ervin still has time, but he's been disappointing and trending down. We don't know what we have yet with Blandino. That's a thin list of guys who aren't all that exciting.
    Kevin Gregg and Jason Marquis will bring back memories of the Lost Decade.

    Kevin Gregg: DFA'd May 11, 2015
    Jason Marquis: Hopefully not far behind

  16. #12
    Member membengal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    9,307

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Indeed. Hard part is, there so much pitching everywhere in baseball, majors and minors, that dangling arms for bat prospects isn't a slam dunk. Re-stocking the system with bats won't be simple - and even if they shift their drafting strategies, may take awhile to replensih.

    It's still why I am so salty over the Cubs pulling Addison Russell for Samadjia last year.

  17. #13
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,916

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckie View Post
    This offseason proved how inept the front office has become. They couldn't even decide what their plan was. Were they rebuilding? Sure looked like it when they dealt away Latos and Simon ... and then didn't do anything to improve the club over the next several weeks.

    But then they traded a promising pitching prospect for Marlon Byrd. Then they signed Burke Badenhop. Maybe they were "going for it" after all.

    Nope, they were stuck in the middle without a real plan. And this is team we are left with. Some excellent high end players and a host of guys that should not be on MLB rosters. It's as if with the bullpen Walt and Co. said: "Hey, we have a great closer; maybe we can get by with scrubs to round out the rest of the 'pen."

    Fans on message boards could see it. Think about that. Fans right here on this board said Kevin Gregg shouldn't be on the team, let alone be the set-up man to begin the season. Fans should not have more baseball acumen than the front office brass of the team they follow.
    Fans on the message boards also wanted to trade Homer Bailey for Jermaine Dye a few years back.
    Championships Matter.
    24 Years and Counting...

  18. Likes:

    OGB (04-14-2015),Tom Servo (04-14-2015),westofyou (04-14-2015)

  19. #14
    Legen...dary reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,643

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    If it turns out the biggest problem on this club is the bullpen, they'll win a lot of games.

    Way more positives than negatives right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    The old Votto is back when he starts cussing himself out between pitches.

  20. Likes:

    757690 (04-14-2015),Raisor (04-15-2015),villain612 (04-14-2015),WVRedsFan (04-14-2015)

  21. #15
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,948

    Re: Bummer alert: Is this franchise really all that good anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    They are a competitive team, that's the goal.
    The goal is to win the World Series. Being competitive is a MEANS to achieving that goal. I know it's picayune, but it's like Bruce refusing to hit the other way when the shift is on because he wants to "stick with what got [him] here." But is that the goal, getting to the big leagues? Being in the big leagues is a means, not an end. The larger goal of winning pennants in the big leagues requires adjustments. It is a big mistake to assume that what got you through the minors will allow you to have long term success against the best pitching and strategic minds in the big leagues. You can be sure, Jay, that they have adjusted to you and what "got you here", and you need to counter. It is a career-long dance...
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | cumberlandreds | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | RedsfaninMT | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25