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Thread: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

  1. #136
    Chicks dig the wRC+ villain612's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    This thread was going so well too.
    Quote Originally Posted by fipp View Post
    How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?

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  3. #137
    Member hebroncougar's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Bronson Arroyo = Tom Browning. Solid middle of the rotation guy who was very dependable. I don't know if that's dogmatic or not. But I know what it was. Very similar to Mike Leake. Who I, would for one, resign in a heartbeat.

  4. #138
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I'm not sure why you would choose to engage in an argument about a solid 8 year starting pitcher for the Reds, a rarity in this town, one who was an interesting character, got the most out of his abilities, and was a part of the Reds turnaround. Fond memories.

    I mean, I agree completely with your evaluation of him, but you know where many's opinions on the guy are, and you know you aren't going to chance them. It's kind of a tasteless argument to push on this board IMO.
    No it's not IMO. Unless this isn't a place to discuss things.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #139
    Member Tracy Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That Arroyo didn't actually provide as much real life production and wasn't nearly as valuable as some assume threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.
    You're wrong.

    In 265 career starts with the Reds, Arroyo went 7 innings or more and allowed 3 earned or less in 106 of them. That's 40%.

    The overall MLB average for its definition of a quality start (6 IP or more, 3 earned or less) during the time that Arroyo pitched for the Reds was somewhere around 47-48%. If you go by the MLB definition of a quality start, Arroyo had 163 of them in his 265 Reds starts. That's 62%. (Rounded)

    To say that Arroyo "didn't provide much production" is absurd. He had far more good starts than bad, took every turn he was called on to make, and overall was a good, not a great pitcher for the Reds.

    All things considered, above average for a pretty long period of time.

  6. #140
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    You're wrong.

    In 265 career starts with the Reds, Arroyo went 7 innings or more and allowed 3 earned or less in 106 of them. That's 40%.

    The overall MLB average for its definition of a quality start (6 IP or more, 3 earned or less) during the time that Arroyo pitched for the Reds was somewhere around 47-48%. If you go by the MLB definition of a quality start, Arroyo had 163 of them in his 265 Reds starts. That's 62%. (Rounded)

    To say that Arroyo "didn't provide much production" is absurd. He had far more good starts than bad, took every turn he was called on to make, and overall was a good, not a great pitcher for the Reds.

    All things considered, above average for a pretty long period of time.
    It's not very metricy, but Arroyo gave the Reds a chance to win most times he took the ball. He is basically the first move in my mind that helped to get the Reds out of the lost decade. His performance or memory on the Reds won't be forgotten by fans of my generation. Imo the dude deserves a plaque in the Reds HOF.

  7. #141
    Probably not Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    No it's not IMO. Unless this isn't a place to discuss things.
    Ya it is. It's just another BAPIP, team independent stats debate thinly veiled through Bronson Arroyo.

    Its an argument where those on either side of the fence tend not to change their mind, and will be even more difficult to sway when the crux at the argument is stemmed at one of the more decent tenured Reds pitchers of the last 25+ years.

    I'm just not sure what quality discussion you expect to stem from that.

  8. #142
    Member Tracy Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    It's not very metricy, but Arroyo gave the Reds a chance to win most times he took the ball. He is basically the first move in my mind that helped to get the Reds out of the lost decade. His performance or memory on the Reds won't be forgotten by fans of my generation. Imo the dude deserves a plaque in the Reds HOF.
    He definitely did. I don't think anyone will argue that Arroyo was a great pitcher. He wasn't. But he absolutely was a good pitcher. Above the league averages in ERA, WHIP, innings pitched, and quality starts.

    He's a shoe-in for the Reds HOF because of his popularity, but he has a strong case based on his performance as well.

  9. #143
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    You're wrong.

    In 265 career starts with the Reds, Arroyo went 7 innings or more and allowed 3 earned or less in 106 of them. That's 40%.

    The overall MLB average for its definition of a quality start (6 IP or more, 3 earned or less) during the time that Arroyo pitched for the Reds was somewhere around 47-48%. If you go by the MLB definition of a quality start, Arroyo had 163 of them in his 265 Reds starts. That's 62%. (Rounded)

    To say that Arroyo "didn't provide much production" is absurd. He had far more good starts than bad, took every turn he was called on to make, and overall was a good, not a great pitcher for the Reds.

    All things considered, above average for a pretty long period of time.
    Actually, I'm right.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #144
    Member Tracy Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Actually, I'm right.
    Well thought out and researched.

    Good work.

  11. #145
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    Well thought out and researched.

    Good work.

    You're like three years late to the party so really, you're position is showing an utter lack of time spent in the archives. So, really it could use more thought and alot more research.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #146
    Probably not Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Right. Super high quality discussion there. Proved me wrong.

  13. #147
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Arroyo for me will forever be linked to the end of the lost decade. He arrived, and the team went from the worst pitching in the league, to around average. The team went from too many outfielders/sluggers and not enough pitching and defense, to an actual, respectable, somewhat well balanced team.

    It obviously wasn't all because of Arroyo, but the trade of Wily Mo for him marks in my mind when the team started to turn into a team I enjoyed watching again.
    ďWeíre going to get the pitching.Ē -Bob Castellini

  14. #148
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I'm at fault for this thread going from Choo to being about Walt Jocketty?

    I'm just saying you are honestly the first person I have heard say that Arroyo was "drastically overpaid for his mediocre production", which is why I replied to your comment. Everyone knows his 2011 sucked, but outside of that, his salary was never much of a concern nor should it have been.

    And I reaaaaaaally don't see how a pitcher who started 32+ games every year for 8 straight years is the microcosmic argument for not signing pitchers to long term contracts. I'd say pitchers who have Tommy John, return, and then undergo another Tommy John are much better arguments.
    The thread was about Choo, Jocketty and bad contracts from the very first post. Go back and read it. Honestly, it is like facts don't mean anything to you. You hijacked it into a Bronson Arroyo thread.

    My comment about Arroyo being "drastically overpaid for his mediocre production" was very clearly directed at the 3-year contract extension, not his entire career as you misconstrued it. The facts show that Bronson Arroyo did not return value equal to the money he was paid with that final three year contract. It is indisputable. His good years prior to 2011 are irrelevant to that discussion. Arroyo was quite valuable as a league-average innings-eater before that, but after that he was clearly overpaid.

    Again, the contract extensions and free agent contracts for pitchers around baseball over the last 20 years have overwhelmingly turned out poorly for the teams who signed them. The Arroyo and Bailey extensions were examples from recent Reds history. Just because a pitcher was healthy before the new contract does not justify signing him. Almost every pitcher is going to get hurt eventually, and history shows us very clearly that free agent pitchers who sign long contracts either get hurt or underperform their salary approximately 90% of the time. So if you advocate signing a pitcher to a big money, long-term contract you are making a reeeeeaaaaaaalllly stupid decision. The facts of history are very clear on this issue.

  15. #149
    Member Tracy Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You're like three years late to the party so really, you're position is showing an utter lack of time spent in the archives. So, really it could use more thought and alot more research.
    lol

    Some charleton has ripped off a Ziggy and passed it off as his own! And I can prove it!

    Quick Elaine...to my archives.

  16. #150
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    lol

    Some charleton has ripped off a Ziggy and passed it off as his own! And I can prove it!

    Quick Elaine...to my archives.
    In other words, you've got nothing and aren't able to do the thing you wrongly accused me of not doing.... uh huh. A simple search is all you'd have to perform. How about a little thought and some research? It seems to be the thing youre craving...why not actually do it then?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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