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Thread: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

  1. #121
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    We'll remember him anchoring the 2016 rotation.
    I don't see at all why they don't kick the tires on him for next year. He's going to get $4.5MM buyout from the D-Backs, so presumably he won't cost too much, and why not try to revitalize his career in a place where he's comfortable already and a place that is going to need pitching. I actually fully expect to see Bronson in red next year.

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  3. #122
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    How about he and Harang team back up, I always liked Harang better
    Go Gators!

  4. #123
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    I think Junkhead might be Beetlejuise

    Let's say his name three times and find out

  5. #124
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Arroyo will go down in history as completely forgettable.
    Not everybody's a Hall of Famer ya know.

    There's nothing wrong with the hall of very good, Bronson qualifies for it, and very few guys are even eligible for that. Furthermore, there is something to be said for longevity, consistency, and health.I'll take a Bronson over say, a Homer Bailey, every time.

    Also he will always at the very least be remembered for that leg kick.

  6. #125
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    By my count Arroyo made just around $70 million total with the Reds for 8 years (with 265 games started and 1,690 innings thrown) and 21.5 total WAR. Seems pretty reasonable.
    That includes the years when he was young and cheap. In this conversation we are talking about contract extensions that don't work out well. When I commented on the Arroyo extension I was talking about the 2 year $28 million extension for 2012 and 2013 that they gave him at the same time they picked up his 2011 option. Essentially the Reds gave Arroyo a 3 year deal for $36 million for 5.1 bWAR from 2011-13, an average of $12 million and 1.7 WAR per season. I think most neutral observers would call that a bad contract extension. Not only that, the Reds will still be paying deferred money on that contract through the year 2021.

    I also haven't forgotten that Arroyo admitted to using PEDs. From Wikipedia: "A day after reports claimed former Red Sox teammate David Ortiz was among 104 Major League players to have failed drug tests in 2003, Arroyo revealed he had used androstenedione and amphetamines in his career. Bronson Arroyo remarked that he would not be surprised if he was among the 104 players that failed tests, as he suspected the androstenedione he was taking may have been tainted with steroids."

  7. #126
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    That includes the years when he was young and cheap. In this conversation we are talking about contract extensions that don't work out well. When I commented on the Arroyo extension I was talking about the 2 year $28 million extension for 2012 and 2013 that they gave him at the same time they picked up his 2011 option. Essentially the Reds gave Arroyo a 3 year deal for $36 million for 5.1 bWAR from 2011-13, an average of $12 million and 1.7 WAR per season. I think most neutral observers would call that a bad contract extension. Not only that, the Reds will still be paying deferred money on that contract through the year 2021.
    I'm taking the long view. The fact that Arroyo was paid more in the seasons where he was worse and less in his first few seasons doesn't mean a damn thing to me.
    I dont care, Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. Hes in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.

  8. #127
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I'm taking the long view. The fact that Arroyo was paid more in the seasons where he was worse and less in his first few seasons doesn't mean a damn thing to me.
    Then why reply to my post about contract extensions in a thread devoted to bad free agent contracts? No wonder the thread got hijacked into a Bronson Arroyo thread rather than the original topic discussing Shin Soo Choo's contract and Walt Jocketty's bad contract extensions.

    Arroyo was a fine pitcher for a long time. He was cheap at first and then overpaid in his decline years, eventually getting hurt while being paid a lot of money by the Diamondbacks. He is the microcosmic argument for not signing pitchers to long term contracts.

  9. #128
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Then why reply to my post about contract extensions in a thread devoted to bad free agent contracts? No wonder the thread got hijacked into a Bronson Arroyo thread rather than the original topic discussing Shin Soo Choo's contract and Walt Jocketty's bad contract extensions.

    Arroyo was a fine pitcher for a long time. He was cheap at first and then overpaid in his decline years, eventually getting hurt while being paid a lot of money by the Diamondbacks. He is the microcosmic argument for not signing pitchers to long term contracts.
    I'm at fault for this thread going from Choo to being about Walt Jocketty?

    I'm just saying you are honestly the first person I have heard say that Arroyo was "drastically overpaid for his mediocre production", which is why I replied to your comment. Everyone knows his 2011 sucked, but outside of that, his salary was never much of a concern nor should it have been.

    And I reaaaaaaally don't see how a pitcher who started 32+ games every year for 8 straight years is the microcosmic argument for not signing pitchers to long term contracts. I'd say pitchers who have Tommy John, return, and then undergo another Tommy John are much better arguments.
    I dont care, Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. Hes in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.

  10. #129
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I'm at fault for this thread going from Choo to being about Walt Jocketty?

    I'm just saying you are honestly the first person I have heard say that Arroyo was "drastically overpaid for his mediocre production", which is why I replied to your comment. Everyone knows his 2011 sucked, but outside of that, his salary was never much of a concern nor should it have been.

    And I reaaaaaaally don't see how a pitcher who started 32+ games every year for 8 straight years is the microcosmic argument for not signing pitchers to long term contracts. I'd say pitchers who have Tommy John, return, and then undergo another Tommy John are much better arguments.
    There are several on this board that made up their minds about Arroyo a long time ago, and nothing he could have ever done would have changed that. His xFIP and WPIX indicated he wasn't worth the money he made, so for some it's an open and shut case. Others realize he ate a ton of quality innings, was a great clubhouse leader, and pitched (and won) some of the biggest games in the renaissance of this franchise. He dominated the Giants in Game 2 of 2012, but that's lost to history due to us choking the series away.

  11. #130
    Member Crumbley's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    There are several on this board that made up their minds about Arroyo a long time ago, and nothing he could have ever done would have changed that. His xFIP and WPIX indicated he wasn't worth the money he made, so for some it's an open and shut case. Others realize he ate a ton of quality innings, was a great clubhouse leader, and pitched (and won) some of the biggest games in the renaissance of this franchise. He dominated the Giants in Game 2 of 2012, but that's lost to history due to us choking the series away.
    Bronson provided real life production, not hypothetical, and that threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.

  12. #131
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Crumbley View Post
    Bronson provided real life production, not hypothetical, and that threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.
    The Slim Sallee effect


  13. #132
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Not only that, the Reds will still be paying deferred money on that contract through the year 2021.
    That actually decreases the value of the $12M annual sum. You act as if its a bad thing for the Reds???

  14. #133
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Crumbley View Post
    Bronson provided real life production, not hypothetical, and that threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.
    That Arroyo didn't actually provide as much real life production and wasn't nearly as valuable as some assume threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.
    "This isnt stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #134
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    I checked back in to this thread hoping for more jokes about humiliation.

    I am profoundly disappointed.
    "Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton

  16. #135
    Probably not Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That Arroyo didn't actually provide as much real life production and wasn't nearly as valuable as some assume threatens many people's dogmatic understanding of baseball.
    I'm not sure why you would choose to engage in an argument about a solid 8 year starting pitcher for the Reds, a rarity in this town, one who was an interesting character, got the most out of his abilities, and was a part of the Reds turnaround. Fond memories.

    I mean, I agree completely with your evaluation of him, but you know where many's opinions on the guy are, and you know you aren't going to chance them. It's kind of a tasteless argument to push on this board IMO.


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