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Thread: Astros.. I know it's early but..

  1. #46
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Making trades for vets, when the time comes, is way easier when you have the payroll which allows you to risk 20 million on a pticher in their mid-Thirties..
    Fixed your post

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  3. #47
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    They wouldn’t have Senzel, Tramm, Greene either

    The Astros were built through the draft
    The Reds would have Senzel and Trammell. They were drafted after the 2015 season, which the team did not tank. They tried to stay competitive, with Cueuto, Leake, Chapman and Frazier. It was only at mid season of 2015, did they trade Cueto and Leake, not until the off season that they traded Frazier and Chapman.

    The process of tanking, in order to build through the draft, didn't start until 2016. So far that has netted the Reds Greene.

    The same is true for the Astros.

    They started actively tanking in 2012. Springer and Correa were draft picks that resulted from teams that were just bad, but no intentionally bad. The #1 draft picks the Astros got from tanking, from "the process" are Mark Appel, Derek Fisher, Brady Aiken, Daz Cameron, Kyle Tucker, and Alex Bregman.

    They definitely got some good talent in those "tanking" drafts, but the team was built around Altuve, Keuchel, Correa and Springer, who they would have had, even if they never tanked, or used "the process."
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

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    REDREAD (10-23-2017)

  5. #48
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    They wouldn’t have Senzel, Tramm, Greene either
    They would have Senzel and Trammel. They might not have Greene, but they'd probably have Gleyber Torres plus whoever they drafted instead of Greene.

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    757690 (10-22-2017)

  7. #49
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    And Eugenio Suarez, he's kinda good, got him from a trade after the 2011 season.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  8. #50
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    Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    And Eugenio Suarez, he's kinda good, got him from a trade after the 2011 season.
    Suarez would still be here, and he’d probably would have never shifted to 3B since Frazier would have been cemented there. Which would have worked out perfectly with Senzel coming up. Plus there would have been more imperative to move Cozart with Suarez pushing hard at SS, so maybe we’d have Luiz Gohara, too. There’s another top-100 prospect we don’t have because we rebuilt.

  9. #51
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Four years after losing 111 games, Houston rewarded after staying course in savvy rebuild.

    http://m.astros.mlb.com/news/article...-world-series/

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  11. #52
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The Reds would have Senzel and Trammell. They were drafted after the 2015 season, which the team did not tank. They tried to stay competitive, with Cueuto, Leake, Chapman and Frazier. It was only at mid season of 2015, did they trade Cueto and Leake, not until the off season that they traded Frazier and Chapman.

    The process of tanking, in order to build through the draft, didn't start until 2016. So far that has netted the Reds Greene.

    The same is true for the Astros.

    They started actively tanking in 2012. Springer and Correa were draft picks that resulted from teams that were just bad, but no intentionally bad. The #1 draft picks the Astros got from tanking, from "the process" are Mark Appel, Derek Fisher, Brady Aiken, Daz Cameron, Kyle Tucker, and Alex Bregman.

    They definitely got some good talent in those "tanking" drafts, but the team was built around Altuve, Keuchel, Correa and Springer, who they would have had, even if they never tanked, or used "the process."
    The Reds were 39-47 at the all-star break. After that, they started tanking. They went 25-51 the rest of the way. To say that would have happened anyway is utterly ridiculous. There's no way we would have ended up drafting Senzel.
    Last edited by Vander; 10-22-2017 at 11:28 AM.

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    Bourgeois Zee (10-22-2017),RedTeamGo! (10-22-2017),Ron Madden (10-22-2017)

  13. #53
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    The Reds were 40-47 at the all-star break. After that, they started tanking. They went 24-51 the rest of the way. To say that would have happened anyway is utterly ridiculous. There's no way we would have ended up drafting Senzel.
    If they were truly "tanking" they would have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline too. They were re-tooling, which means trading players who would not be with the team the following year. Many here thought they should have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline, and started a complete tear down and rebuild. But they didn't, they just did the standard re-tooling that most teams do with impending free agents at the deadline.

    They started the tanking as soon as Williams became GM, which was during the following off season, when they traded Frazier and Chapman for next to nothing.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  14. #54
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If they were truly "tanking" they would have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline too. They were re-tooling, which means trading players who would not be with the team the following year. Many here thought they should have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline, and started a complete tear down and rebuild. But they didn't, they just did the standard re-tooling that most teams do with impending free agents at the deadline.

    They started the tanking as soon as Williams became GM, which was during the following off season, when they traded Frazier and Chapman for next to nothing.
    They got rid of half of their pitching staff. A "retooling" team doesn't do that because they weren't making themselves better for 2016. An effort would have been put forward to replace their assets for the near-term.

    They also tried to trade Chapman as well, but Walt didn't like the offers he received.

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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    They got rid of half of their pitching staff. A "retooling" team doesn't do that because they weren't making themselves better for 2016. An effort would have been put forward to replace their assets for the near-term.

    They also tried to trade Chapman as well, but Walt didn't like the offers he received.
    Edit: (I miss read your post)The Reds acquired in the Cueto and Leake deals, players that helped them in 2016, Finnegan and Duvall, plus some other talent that was close, in Reed and Lamb. But the Reds changed course when Williams was named GM, and the re-tooling turned into a tear down and rebuild. It is very common for teams that re-tool to have bad second halves, because of the players they traded away at the deadline.

    The reason why he didn't like the offers he received for Chapman, was because it didn't fit his re-tooling plan. He wanted players closer to the majors. It clearly was a mistake looking back, but that's because the plan changed.
    Last edited by 757690; 10-22-2017 at 11:44 AM.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  16. #56
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post

    They started the tanking as soon as Williams became GM, which was during the following off season, when they traded Frazier and Chapman for next to nothing.
    After all this time, you still don't understand that the "General Manager" title isn't the same for most clubs as it was 10 years ago.

    President of Baseball Operations today is what General Manager was 10 years ago
    General Manager is what an Assistant General Manager was.

    Teams can't poach executives for lateral moves without permission from the original club, so teams created the President of Baseball Operations to get around that.

  17. #57
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    After all this time, you still don't understand that the "General Manager" title isn't the same for most clubs as it was 10 years ago.

    President of Baseball Operations today is what General Manager was 10 years ago
    General Manager is what an Assistant General Manager was.

    Teams can't poach executives for lateral moves without permission from the original club, so teams created the President of Baseball Operations to get around that.

    The team changed direction. It doesn't matter what the titles of the front office were. They went from Walt saying we won't trade Frazier at all, we are committed to winning in 2016, to... we are trading Frazier and Chapman no matter the offers and we don't have a timeline for when we will be good again.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  18. #58
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The team changed direction. It doesn't matter what the titles of the front office were. They went from Walt saying we won't trade Frazier at all, we are committed to winning in 2016, to... we are trading Frazier and Chapman no matter the offers and we don't have a timeline for when we will be good again.
    You don't trade one of the top 10 starting pitchers in the league (without even trying to extend him), and then not replace that production for the next year when you're trying to win in 2016. Remember, Walt was under extreme pressure from Castellini not to go the Astros route. The best he could do was smaller moves like that. However, that doesn't mean that wasn't part of the rebuild.

    A retooling would have involved using that salary saved to sign free agents to contend in 2016. That didn't happen. It was part of the rebuild. They just didn't call it that because it's terrible PR.

  19. #59
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    You don't trade one of the top 10 starting pitchers in the league (without even trying to extend him), and then not replace that production for the next year when you're trying to win in 2016. Remember, Walt was under extreme pressure from Castellini not to go the Astros route. The best he could do was smaller moves like that. However, that doesn't mean that wasn't part of the rebuild.

    A retooling would have involved using that salary saved to sign free agents to contend in 2016. That didn't happen. It was part of the rebuild. They just didn't call it that because it's terrible PR.
    Yoir making my point.

    The decision to tear down and rebuild was made in the offseason between the 2015 and 2016 season. At the 2015 trade deadline, there was a different plan. That was to re-tool. Trade Cueto and Leake, and then replace them in the off season. But the plan changed whenever Williams was named GM, instead of adding talent, they Reds subtracted talent and tore the team down.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  20. #60
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Yoir making my point.

    The decision to tear down and rebuild was made in the offseason between the 2015 and 2016 season. At the 2015 trade deadline, there was a different plan. That was to re-tool. Trade Cueto and Leake, and then replace them in the off season. But the plan changed whenever Williams was named GM, instead of adding talent, they Reds subtracted talent and tore the team down.
    Williams wasn't in charge in 2016.

    And here's an article from right after the Cueto trade:
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/spor...uild/30729097/

    CTrent declaring the rebuild had officially started. It was July of 2015.


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