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Thread: Astros.. I know it's early but..

  1. #61
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Yoir making my point.

    The decision to tear down and rebuild was made in the offseason between the 2015 and 2016 season. At the 2015 trade deadline, there was a different plan. That was to re-tool. Trade Cueto and Leake, and then replace them in the off season. But the plan changed whenever Williams was named GM, instead of adding talent, they Reds subtracted talent and tore the team down.
    Trading Cueto and Leake was the beginning of the rebuild.

    You don't replace one of the best three or four starters in the league without losing a bunch of games. When you add Leake, you're rebuilding.

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  3. #62
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Trading Cueto and Leake was the beginning of the rebuild.

    You don't replace one of the best three or four starters in the league without losing a bunch of games. When you add Leake, you're rebuilding.
    And zero effort was put into replacing that production. Zero. If you're retooling to compete in 2016, that doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Vander; 10-22-2017 at 12:21 PM.

  4. #63
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    Williams wasn't in charge in 2016.

    And here's an article from right after the Cueto trade:
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/spor...uild/30729097/

    CTrent declaring the rebuild had officially started. It was July of 2015.
    And here is straight from the horse's mouth:

    http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/c...-roster-031316

    "I think we’re going to be a very good ball club this year," Jocketty said Sunday. "I think we’re going to surprise some people, especially if we can (fortify) our bullpen, make some moves at the end of camp or during the season to strengthen that."

    That’s right, the Reds might look to add rather than subtract before Opening Day.
    "We didn’t want to take it too far back,” Jocketty said. “Mesoraco is still young (27) and under control. Same with [Billy] Hamilton. We didn’t want to do a complete teardown and rebuild. This was more of a transition and an attempt to retool and add to what we have.
    As RedTeamGo would say...

    Mic Drop
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

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  6. #64
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Mic Drop
    Have you never heard of public relations?

    How many tickets are going to be sold if he tells all of Cincinnati "Hey Reds fans! We're going to suck like crazy this year, but you can still come on out to make fun of our terrible-ness!"

    At the time, everyone knew what was going on. The Reds knew. We all knew. The fact that Walt said they were "retooling" is just PR speak for "rebuilding".

    Even the Reds beat writers were calling it a rebuild in 2015.

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  8. #65
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    Have you never heard of public relations?

    How many tickets are going to be sold if he tells all of Cincinnati "Hey Reds fans! We're going to suck like crazy this year, but you can still come on out to make fun of our terrible-ness!"

    At the time, everyone knew what was going on. The Reds knew. We all knew. The fact that Walt said they were "retooling" is just PR speak for "rebuilding".

    Even the Reds beat writers were calling it a rebuild in 2015.
    As for PR, Williams wasn't saying the Reds would compete in 2016, or that they would be adding new pieces. He was saying they would be reinvesting in the draft and international signings. Clearly Williams and Jocketty were not on the same page here. They were using different PR guys, it seems, lol.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  9. #66
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Trading Cueto and Leake was the beginning of the rebuild.

    You don't replace one of the best three or four starters in the league without losing a bunch of games. When you add Leake, you're rebuilding.
    If the Reds were truely rebuilding at the 2015 deadline, why didn’t they trade Frazier and Chapman? It seems they tried, but didn’t germ what they felt made the team better in the near future.

    Then, it is clear they changed plans in the off season, and traded both for far less than what they could have gotten for them at the previous deadline. That makes no sense if the rebuild started at the deadline.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

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  11. #67
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If they were truly "tanking" they would have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline too. They were re-tooling, which means trading players who would not be with the team the following year. Many here thought they should have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline, and started a complete tear down and rebuild. But they didn't, they just did the standard re-tooling that most teams do with impending free agents at the deadline.

    They started the tanking as soon as Williams became GM, which was during the following off season, when they traded Frazier and Chapman for next to nothing.
    The Reds went into the final day of the year needing to lose and having like 4 teams win in order to secure the #2 spot in the draft, as well as the money that comes with it that allowed them to get both Senzel and Trammell. 1 game. The trading of Cueto at the break, the trading of Leake at the break, those moves directly led to the Reds getting the #2 pick in 2016.

    They may not have exactly been "tanking", but that's when they started the rebuild for sure.

  12. #68
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds went into the final day of the year needing to lose and having like 4 teams win in order to secure the #2 spot in the draft, as well as the money that comes with it that allowed them to get both Senzel and Trammell. 1 game. The trading of Cueto at the break, the trading of Leake at the break, those moves directly led to the Reds getting the #2 pick in 2016.

    They may not have exactly been "tanking", but that's when they started the rebuild for sure.
    Again, if they really wanted that top draft slot, they would have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline for whatever they could get. The fact that they held on to them, and then, just a few months later, traded them for whatever they could get, signals a change in philosophy. From a 'rebuild/re-tool" to a "tear down and tank."
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  13. #69
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Again, if they really wanted that top draft slot, they would have traded Frazier and Chapman at the deadline for whatever they could get. The fact that they held on to them, and then, just a few months later, traded them for whatever they could get, signals a change in philosophy. From a 'rebuild/re-tool" to a "tear down and tank."
    It's almost like I specifically stated that there was a difference between the two things in my post to avoid someone making this exact post, and yet, here we are. I'm not surprised, though.

  14. #70
    Overton Window Breaker WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    I'm wondering if it matters when exactly the rebuild started. We know it's full on now.

    We also know that while the Astros picked 1,1,1,2&5 from 2012-15, the Reds have picked 2,2,5 in 2016-18. That difference may mean the rebuild won't go as well for the Reds as it has for the Astros.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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  16. #71
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    I'm wondering if it matters when exactly the rebuild started. We know it's full on now.

    We also know that while the Astros picked 1,1,1,2&5 from 2012-15, the Reds have picked 2,2,5 in 2016-18. That difference may mean the rebuild won't go as well for the Reds as it has for the Astros.
    Well, there's that, but there's also the part where they've got significantly more money to spend, too. I can't imagine a day where the Reds can ever go out and acquire a Justin Verlander type contract. To me, I think that is more of the difference between the situations.

  17. #72
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It's almost like I specifically stated that there was a difference between the two things in my post to avoid someone making this exact post, and yet, here we are. I'm not surprised, though.
    Then what’s your point?

    My point is that the goal of the Cueto and Leake trades was to re-tool, not to get a good draft pick. Do you agree rom disagree with this point?
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  18. #73
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The team changed direction. It doesn't matter what the titles of the front office were. They went from Walt saying we won't trade Frazier at all, we are committed to winning in 2016, to... we are trading Frazier and Chapman no matter the offers and we don't have a timeline for when we will be good again.
    He also was quoted early in the 2016 offseason as saying they needed to sign two starting pitchers. Obviously that never happened, but at the time of that quote they hadn't decided to rebuild yet.

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  20. #74
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Then what’s your point?

    My point is that the goal of the Cueto and Leake trades was to re-tool, not to get a good draft pick. Do you agree rom disagree with this point?
    You're extremely hung up on the word "rebuild". That's the wrong argument.

    How about this. If the Reds truly believed they could have contended in 2016 and all they needed to do was "retool", would they have still traded both Leake and Cueto?

    I don't think so. I think they would have at least attempted to extend at least one of them. Not doing so led them to having an unworkable pitching staff the next year, and they have to have known that better than we did. By trading those two, they were making an already below average roster a lot worse without giving themselves a route to get better for the next year without spending like crazy in free agency, which they knew they wouldn't be able to do with their budget.

    In essence, what you're saying is that you believe that when they traded those two, they believed that the roster could contend the next year without a top half of the rotation. It makes absolutely zero sense.

    But then, you say! Wait! Dick Williams was made the GM in the offseason and everything changed! Suddenly the rebuild began because he changed the philosophy!

    Except, as has been stated, Dick did not have the ability to make those decisions for another year. It was still Walt making the decisions.

    But then, you say! Walt HIMSELF called it a "retool"! You see?! Don't you see my mighty mic on the ground?!

    Well, of course he said that. No executive in charge of selling a product is going to tell their customers that the product they're buying sucks. Why would he ever say that, unless it was just too plainly obvious to ignore? The only reason why Dick has called it a rebuild is because you just can't get around that fact anymore, but those two moves were the beginning of this transition, no matter what term you want to use.

    When most people talk about the beginning of a rebuild, it's when a team realizes that their roster can't compete, and they start tearing it down. That's what the Reds did with Cueto and Leake.

    Want to know what a retool looks like? Look at the Giants this year. They were terrible but they didn't trade away any meaningful assets, and now they're going to be persuing a middle of the order bat like Stanton in the offseason. That is what retooling looks like. That's not even close to what the 2015 Reds did.

  21. #75
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Astros.. I know it's early but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    You're extremely hung up on the word "rebuild". That's the wrong argument.

    How about this. If the Reds truly believed they could have contended in 2016 and all they needed to do was "retool", would they have still traded both Leake and Cueto?

    I don't think so. I think they would have at least attempted to extend at least one of them. Not doing so led them to having an unworkable pitching staff the next year, and they have to have known that better than we did. By trading those two, they were making an already below average roster a lot worse without giving themselves a route to get better for the next year without spending like crazy in free agency, which they knew they wouldn't be able to do with their budget.

    In essence, what you're saying is that you believe that when they traded those two, they believed that the roster could contend the next year without a top half of the rotation. It makes absolutely zero sense.

    But then, you say! Wait! Dick Williams was made the GM in the offseason and everything changed! Suddenly the rebuild began because he changed the philosophy!

    Except, as has been stated, Dick did not have the ability to make those decisions for another year. It was still Walt making the decisions.

    But then, you say! Walt HIMSELF called it a "retool"! You see?! Don't you see my mighty mic on the ground?!

    Well, of course he said that. No executive in charge of selling a product is going to tell their customers that the product they're buying sucks. Why would he ever say that, unless it was just too plainly obvious to ignore? The only reason why Dick has called it a rebuild is because you just can't get around that fact anymore, but those two moves were the beginning of this transition, no matter what term you want to use.

    When most people talk about the beginning of a rebuild, it's when a team realizes that their roster can't compete, and they start tearing it down. That's what the Reds did with Cueto and Leake.

    Want to know what a retool looks like? Look at the Giants this year. They were terrible but they didn't trade away any meaningful assets, and now they're going to be persuing a middle of the order bat like Stanton in the offseason. That is what retooling looks like. That's not even close to what the 2015 Reds did.
    Trading Cueto and Leake at the deadline did rule out signing them, or another pitcher in the off season. In fact, thst off season, there was plenty of stating pitching to sign. Many teams have traded a player at the deadline, only to sign him as a free agent in the next off season. That’s what the Yankees did with Chapman.

    Btw, I was mocking myself and RedTeamGo with the silly mic drop line
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.


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