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Thread: MLS 2017 Thread

  1. #61
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    If I were on the MLS expansion committee, I'd be looking to beat MLB into various markets: Sacramento, Charlotte, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Nashville, Indianapolis.
    Wait until the year after next year.

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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    San Diego seems like a great community for Soccer. No reason the current Chargers stadium can't hold the games. It already has wide sidelines. Seems more designed for soccer than football.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    If I were on the MLS expansion committee, I'd be looking to beat MLB into various markets: Sacramento, Charlotte, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Nashville, Indianapolis.
    There is ZERO chance of MLB in Indianapolis; It's too close to Cincy, and lacks a large enough of a corporate infrastructure to sustain NFL, NBA and MLB. MLS is another story altogether.

    Vegas will be hard-pressed enough to support NHL and NFL.

    Otherwise, I agree that non-MLB Major League markets are the markets to first target. IMHO, the business plan for an MLS franchise > other Major League business plans, MLB included.
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    There is ZERO chance of MLB in Indianapolis; It's too close to Cincy, and lacks a large enough of a corporate infrastructure to sustain NFL, NBA and MLB. MLS is another story altogether.

    Vegas will be hard-pressed enough to support NHL and NFL.

    Otherwise, I agree that non-MLB Major League markets are the markets to first target. IMHO, the business plan for an MLS franchise > other Major League business plans, MLB included.
    Indianapolis tried in the 80s. It didn't get that far.


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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    Indianapolis tried in the 80s. It didn't get that far.


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    Yep.

    The Arrows. And that was before the preponderance of luxury boxes/corporate bases, both of which are necessities today. To that end, MLS is plausible in either Indy or Cincy, but not both; but much more so in Indy, as you are not directly competing with an MLB franchise.
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    Are we not men? Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Yep.

    The Arrows. And that was before the preponderance of luxury boxes/corporate bases, both of which are necessities today. To that end, MLS is plausible in either Indy or Cincy, but not both; but much more so in Indy, as you are not directly competing with an MLB franchise.
    When you consider attendance and season ticket sales, being in an MLB market has had zero negative impact on FC Cincinnati. With over 11,000 season tickets sold, they have a larger season ticket base than many existing MLS teams, and being that that number was announced in March and was expected to be still growing, they may have more season ticket holders than Indy Eleven has capacity in their stadium. At this point, I think Indy is probably towards the bottom on the list of candidates because they don't have a place to play with enough capacity and the owners have been unable to secure public financing for a soccer specific stadium. Like Sacramento, FC Cincinnati could be an MLS team ready to go next season if necessary. FC Cincinnati's only issue is that they play at Nippert on UC's campus.

    Whether a city has an MLB team or not is of little consequence if a city has shown existing support for soccer.
    Last edited by Yachtzee; 04-09-2017 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Wrote MLS instead of MLB
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Like Sacramento, FC Cincinnati could be an MLS team ready to go next season if necessary. FC Cincinnati's only issue is that they play at Nippert on UC's campus.
    By that token, so could San Diego, which is located in a metropolitan market almost twice the size of Cincinnati. There's also now a proposed privately-funded sports arena on the docket for the port district of Downtown San Diego among other additional ideas for redevelopment there, so it stands to reason that, should a publicly funded soccer stadium fail, a privately funded soccer stadium could be built in conjunction with a sports arena. It's a much larger TV market, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Whether a city has an MLB team or not is of little consequence if a city has shown existing support for soccer.
    When you factor in the competition for the sports entertainment dollar in relation to it's market size, it sure as heck is of consequence. That's why Sacramento, San Diego, San Antonio and St. Louis -- should they ever secure a soccer stadium (a big if, I know) -- should head the list.
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    By that token, so could San Diego, which is located in a metropolitan market almost twice the size of Cincinnati. There's also now a proposed privately-funded sports arena on the docket for the port district of Downtown San Diego among other additional ideas for redevelopment there, so it stands to reason that, should a publicly funded soccer stadium fail, a privately funded soccer stadium could be built in conjunction with a sports arena. It's a much larger TV market, too.



    When you factor in the competition for the sports entertainment dollar in relation to it's market size, it sure as heck is of consequence. That's why Sacramento, San Diego, San Antonio and St. Louis -- should they ever secure a soccer stadium (a big if, I know) -- should head the list.
    If San Diego had an actual factual team that had fan support and an actual factual stadium plan in motion, I would feel better about them as a candidate, but as it is, everything is just talk and most of it seems to depend on a partnership with the city and San Diego State University an assumption that San Diegans who suddenly find themselves without the Chargers will flock to a soccer team. But fan support as it were is merely hypothetical and truth be told, any San Diego team is going to have to compete with the Xolos, just south of the border in Tijuana for support. If you're expecting San Diego soccer fans who currently support the Xolos to just turn their attention to a new team in San Diego, you might be disappointed. They tried the whole "let's try to capture fans of Mexican clubs" marketing scheme with Chivas USA and it failed miserably. Now San Diego did support the San Diego Sockers when they played indoors back in the 1980s, but Cleveland supported the Force and the Crunch and no one is falling over themselves to give Cleveland a team, in spite of the fact that the Cleveland-Akron market is bigger than other markets already in the league.

    By your logic, Miami should be a much better sports town than it is because of it's market size, and yet Miami teams are often plagued with bad attendance even when they are good. Unfortunately, because they signed a deal with Beckham to give him rights to a franchise and he wants his team in Miami, they're stuck, but Miami failed once before as an MLS market I don't envision it changing this time around. If MLS just went solely by market size, there's no way they should have teams in places like Columbus or Salt Lake City, and why would they put three teams in the Pacific Northwest in such a short period of time? Why a team in Montreal for that matter? The answer is that those cities had the support of fans before they got an MLS team. In the case of Columbus, more people put down deposits for season tickets before the MLS even announced which teams would get cities. In places like Vancouver, Portland, and Montreal, it was because fans supported the Timbers, Whitecaps, and the Impact in the lower divisions.

    In my opinion, the best advertisement for the sport is playing games in front of full stadiums with boisterous fan support. If you want to find out which markets are more likely to give you that support, there's already a great laboratory for that where you can have trial runs, call the USL and NASL. Want to see how San Diego will do as a market? Tell those investors to get a USL/NASL franchise and see what kind of interest you get. Tell them they have to come up with an actual workable stadium solution that isn't dependent on a public vote for funding. Same with St. Louis and all these other candidates.
    Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!

  11. #69
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    I agree Cincinnati's ability to draw fans should be taken seriously. Might be wise for MLS to see if FCC can keep up its numbers for a couple more seasons, but that's an incredibly strong market for a USL team. I hope they get entry into MLS, though in general my league expansion focus would be non-MLB cities. It would take something like FCC in a MLB market to get me interested.

    One question, do people think ticket prices play a role in FCC's success? I kind of wonder if pro sports in the Cincinnati region have jumped the shark a bit. What are you really getting for you money? Meanwhile you can get a quality experience at a good price with FCC. Same thing applies to the Dayton Dragons in baseball. Value seems to be part of the attraction.
    Wait until the year after next year.

  12. #70
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I agree Cincinnati's ability to draw fans should be taken seriously. Might be wise for MLS to see if FCC can keep up its numbers for a couple more seasons, but that's an incredibly strong market for a USL team. I hope they get entry into MLS, though in general my league expansion focus would be non-MLB cities. It would take something like FCC in a MLB market to get me interested.

    One question, do people think ticket prices play a role in FCC's success? I kind of wonder if pro sports in the Cincinnati region have jumped the shark a bit. What are you really getting for you money? Meanwhile you can get a quality experience at a good price with FCC. Same thing applies to the Dayton Dragons in baseball. Value seems to be part of the attraction.
    I think it's best to wait and see as well. While I applaud FCC's success last year and their fan support and their marketing, they are probably going to have to keep winning to sustain their support and viability. Small sample size I know and they have all been road games but they have started out 1-2 this year. If they don't finish above .500, I could see some fan support slip away. Also, minor league sports doesn't have the continuity of players like most major league teams do. I'm sure there are diehards who get involved with the Dragons and the Cyclones but more often than not it's tough to form an attachment to those players since they will only be here for a season or two at the most. FCC lost their arguably best player from last season. Trading away long time fan favorites is one of the reasons interest in the Reds is down. With the other minor league teams, losing doesn't really matter for fans in the grand scheme of things. Obviously you'd like them to win but more often than not going to a game is just something to do. Soccer fans seem to be more passionate so perhaps the wins and losses matter more than the other teams. What's going to happen if the Reds improve to a point where they are playing meaningful games in August and September and FCC matches are on the same day? By then perhaps some of the shine will have worn off of FCC and if they aren't winning, and perhaps those fans who went to FCC games are going to watch the Reds instead. What's going to happen if they want to build a new stadium? There have already been talks about that already. Who is going to pay for it and where's it going to be? Will the good people of Hamilton County be up for funding another stadium?
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Portland was the only home team to win this weekend. 7 road teams got wins with 2 draws. Strange day. Portland had been the only MLS team to win a road game this year (twice, but not in Columbus).
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 04-10-2017 at 04:41 PM.
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Portland was the only home team to win yesterday. 7 road teams got wins with 2 draws. Strange day.
    I think you might have that backwards. Portland played on the road this weekend.

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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    I think you might have that backwards. Portland played on the road this weekend.
    That makes more sense. I hadn't really looked at standings until today.
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    By your logic, Miami should be a much better sports town than it is because of it's market size, and yet Miami teams are often plagued with bad attendance even when they are good. Unfortunately, because they signed a deal with Beckham to give him rights to a franchise and he wants his team in Miami, they're stuck, but Miami failed once before as an MLS market I don't envision it changing this time around. If MLS just went solely by market size, there's no way they should have teams in places like Columbus or Salt Lake City, and why would they put three teams in the Pacific Northwest in such a short period of time? Why a team in Montreal for that matter? The answer is that those cities had the support of fans before they got an MLS team. In the case of Columbus, more people put down deposits for season tickets before the MLS even announced which teams would get cities. In places like Vancouver, Portland, and Montreal, it was because fans supported the Timbers, Whitecaps, and the Impact in the lower divisions.
    No, that it absolutely NOT what I'm suggesting. Miami to San Diego, which is down to only one Major League franchise despite its size, and through little to no fault of it's own, is an apples to asparagus comparison.

    Miami is already an over-saturated Major League market with fickle fans to boot. It's not, for example, Detroit -- a non-MLS market with proven, loyal fan support for all it's Major League franchises. The current MLS markets mentioned in this quote are exactly the type of markets -- small degree of Major League competition for the pro sports entertainment dollar relative to market size before their respective MLS franchises were awarded -- that made sense then, and make the most sense now.

    We can quibble forever about which non-MLS markets deserve first dibs, but, in the end, MLS is sitting in the catbird's seat regarding possible expansion. The "need" for expansion isn't strong enough to warrant granting of expansion franchises willy nilly; they can take their time to properly procure markets, and certainly will. See, I really don't view MLB expansion as a viable option despite lip service to the contrary. Obviously, if the Oakland A's, for example, relocate to Sacramento, that may affect possible MLS
    expansion there.
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    Re: MLS 2017 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    No, that it absolutely NOT what I'm suggesting. Miami to San Diego, which is down to only one Major League franchise despite its size, and through little to no fault of it's own, is an apples to asparagus comparison.

    Miami is already an over-saturated Major League market with fickle fans to boot. It's not, for example, Detroit -- a non-MLS market with proven, loyal fan support for all it's Major League franchises. The current MLS markets mentioned in this quote are exactly the type of markets -- small degree of Major League competition for the pro sports entertainment dollar relative to market size before their respective MLS franchises were awarded -- that made sense then, and make the most sense now.

    We can quibble forever about which non-MLS markets deserve first dibs, but, in the end, MLS is sitting in the catbird's seat regarding possible expansion. The "need" for expansion isn't strong enough to warrant granting of expansion franchises willy nilly; they can take their time to properly procure markets, and certainly will. See, I really don't view MLB expansion as a viable option despite lip service to the contrary. Obviously, if the Oakland A's, for example, relocate to Sacramento, that may affect possible MLS
    expansion there.
    The only reason there's pressure to expand is because MLS put it on themselves when they announced that they would decide the next four expansion candidates in short order, with two being announced later this year and two sometime after than. Other than that, I agree, there is no rush. But MLS has created the feeding frenzy by telling cities they had to get their bids in by the deadline or miss out on the next four opportunities, which may or may not be the last.

    What I'm saying is not that San Diego shouldn't get a team or that Cincinnati absolutely deserves a team. What I'm saying is that teams shouldn't be decided on marketing data that outlines a market's potential, but rather on actual real tangible indications that a particular bidding group is willing and able to meet the requirements for a franchise. MLS has made franchise decisions in the past based on marketing data and "potential," particularly in the cases of the Miami Fusion, Chivas USA, and the current Beckham-driven situation in Miami and each of those has been a failure. They've given Beckham three years to get something going in Miami, and at this point he's no closer than he was when they announced he was exercising his option for an expansion franchise. What I'd like to see is the people behind the San Diego bid actually get a USL or NASL team up and running first to show they seriously intend to put a soccer team out there and aren't just in it to try and get that stadium money from the City of San Diego that the Chargers left behind. I think San Diego absolutely should have a professional soccer team, but should that unquestionably be one of the next MLS teams or a strong candidate for a 2nd Division team. My concern is whether San Diego should be considered one of the top candidates ahead of other cities at this time when everything is just in the "this is what we'd like to do phase" when other cities have real teams playing real soccer in front of real supporters and some of them even have their own local radio and tv deals. And I don't like how Garber seems to show favoritism toward cities that just lost an NFL team, as if money for an NFL stadium automatically translates to money for an MLS stadium.

    I think it would be a big mistake for them to give San Diego a team and have their stadium plans fail to materialize as Beckham's have in Miami. In fact, they almost had that situation twice over when Garber decided he wanted a second team in the NY metro area. Imagine if the Yankees hadn't decided join City Football Group's NYCFC bid. Garber probably would have still convinced the MLS owners to give the team to City Football Group, because "Hey, Manchester City wants in!" But chances are, NYCFC would still be an imaginary team looking for a place to play, or else would be the weaker sister to Red Bulls in Red Bull Arena in New Jersey, which would be the exact opposite of what Garber wanted, a club playing in NYC proper. As it is, NYCFC's bid promised a soccer specific stadium and to date, all their plans have fallen through, so they continue to play on a scrunched up field shoe-horned into Yankee Stadium.

    MLS wants to be taken seriously not just domestically, but internationally as well. They've been actively seeking better contracts with TV networks both home and abroad. In this day and age when many viewers watch soccer on TV and online, the best advertisement for MLS is going to be playing games on appropriately sized pitches in front of packed stadiums. Having ongoing sagas where teams can't even get off the ground because they can't get a place to play makes the league look bad. If they're deciding on two expansion cities this year, then I feel they should pick the strongest candidates with an organization in place and give the remaining candidates a few years to build a tangible organization with real, concrete plans for a place to play. And they really need to set a deadline to pull the plug on Miami and open that up as well.
    Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!

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