How about lets stop this notion of assuming you completely understand her. But more importantly, lets completely stop this notion that it's unacceptable to expect people to keep their promises. It's pure shenanigans on steroids to make such an obviously flawed argument. You either keep your word or you don't. Life is that simple.Originally Posted by BernieCarbo
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Can we use the word "oath" instead of "promise"? "Promise" feels light and minimizes how terrible she should feel for betraying her mom's boyfriend.
BernieCarbo (05-30-2017)
I expect my kids to live up to their obligations too. What made this particular "promise" so important to Chip? It's just a wedding for a family that isn't even hers when she has a bunch of stuff to deal with now that she didn't before. It isn't like she joined the Army and then changed her mind and went AWOL, or bought a car and never made payments.
In fact, I am trying to think how something like this would even happen in my life:
"John, my nephew in Iowa is having a wedding in a few months, and I want you and your mom to go."
"Uh, ok, I guess."
"Do you promise? Say, 'I promise'."
"Ok, I promise", saying anything to make this conversation stop.
I'm asked so seldomly to promise to do something, because it's typically reserved for something much more important. So yeah, the whole thing is weird.
Stepping back off the ledge of umbrage for a split second...has there been any thought put into make this trip more engaging for the daughter? If she's going to be a human prop/main character of a morality play for 1-2 days, the least that can be offered is a few hours (or even a day) in the nearest big city to have a nice lunch/dinner, do some shopping, visit a museum, hit up a record store, etc. Something to show that her mom and her boyfriend understand she is a person with their own interests and life and appreciate her agreeing to come to the wedding.
Why not just keep it simple so as poorly executed and grossly misplaced attempts at humor don't muddy a very straightforward concept....lets call it doing what you say you're gonna do? And lets all agree that doing what one says they're going to do is a realistic expectation for others to have of one and its reasonable to assume that others would have a lessened opinion of one were that one to fail to do what they said they'd do, especially as it becomes a pattern.
Ya, argue against that one.... have it.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I don't believe that stripping context from a situation clarifies it or that forcing real life situations into sanded down moral/ethical binaries brings us to deeper truths. If she agreed to eat a peanut and then backed out, that would be different than if she agreed to pick up her toddler brother from daycare and then went to Vegas instead. I'd rank this situation as closer to the peanut end of the spectrum. All it takes is one adult to see how immaterial this scenario is and divert their energy and gnashing of teeth toward something productive, like helping an 18 year old with her job, college, and transition into being an independent adult. Imagine the lesson she'd have received if she saw an adult swallow their pride and offer support and acceptance of her staking out her independence. Instead, she saw an adult who was willing to burn his own house down to prove a point about promises or trust or something.
On that point, I'm more curious why an adult man is so invested in and hurt by his girlfriend's 18 year old daughter not wanting to attend his nephew's out of state wedding, to the point that a "come to Jesus" intervention is required complete with tears and apologies. I'm also curious with permanent, unchanging consent/agreement being touted as a virtue. Do we really want to teach our daughters that if they agree to something, regardless of any/all context, they have to follow through? Think about that moral for more than 1 second.
Was the original "oath" voluntary and meaningful or was it agreed to just to get an authority figure off her back?
While I agree with jojo that a person needs to learn to keep their word or life will become extremely difficult - what strikes me here is the statement that more info (financial etc) came to light after the initial oath. Why not release her from said oath? Dispense some friendly advice (that may or not be taken) as to what she needs to do to get her life back in order.
My limited life experience gives me the Spider-sense that this isn't just "about the wedding." But I could be wrong and I mean no offense by that.
RedTeamGo! (05-30-2017)
No. As Bernie put it, they're playing "house". Chip said this:
Chip, kudos to you for bringing an extremely provocative subject for RZ to hash around. Honestly I think both sides have made very good points. You've staked your ground and I respect the stance you've taken. One point that's kinda been lost in all of this is that this is the second time this gal has pulled this stunt.So I talked to her mom on the phone that night (we live apart but see each other on the weekends) and asked her what the deal was. She told me that they had a huge fight about it and her daughter was insistent on not going even though she had promised not to schedule anything for that weekend like she did last year.
Having learned more about this I'll add a little more. I'm a little surprised your GF's daughter and Grandmother were even invited to the wedding. Perhaps your nephew is closer to these two than I imagine but rarely are relatives like this invited. Normally I'd expect an invitation like this to go to you Chip Redsfan plus guest. Did you ask the nephew if you could bring the GM and "step" daughter? If so then I understand how this would be particularly embarrassing.
I respect your trying to "meld" the families but I think so long as you have not married your GF, it's proper to not assume her daughter is part of your family. Given her issues that realization might make this sort of thing easier to deal with in the future.
To get a female perspective on this, my wife says:
It doesn't sound like your GF is backing you up on this. If she doesn't then you "don't have a leg to stand on". You can't parent someone else's kid. She's not your kid. Your GF needs to be the one to teach her these "values". You can't do it.
One final thing, are there any hidden expenses that this girl might not be able to afford such as buying a dress, travel, hotel?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please keep us posted.
RedTeamGo! (05-30-2017)
Holy crap.
Does Chip R stand for Chip Redsfan?
My mind is blown right now, I've always assumed the R was the first letter of Chip's last name.
Hmn...I think everyone is a little bit right in this thread. It's certainly acceptable to expect a child to follow up on a promise. But, at the same time, we also know that they don't really have the same priorities adults do. Heck, even adults don't have the same priorities other adults do. It's also pretty clear that there's a huge gap in expectations; both from the daughter's side and from Chip's.
Chip, seems to be extremely relationship-oriented. Teenagers can be too, but tend to be most closely tied to the relationships that directly benefit them in the present or immediate future. This creates a huge gap of:
Chip relationship priority: 1) Family 2) Girlfriend 3) Girlfriend Daughter 4) Boss 5) Friends 6) Everyone else
Daughter relationship priority: 1) Friends 2) Boyfriend OR, if none, attractive boy who may or may not know she exists 3) Mother 4) Cute lifeguard 5) Young teacher she's secretly had a crush on. 6) The drinking-age kid who buys booze for her and her friends on the weekend. 7) Hot NFL player she will never meet. 8) Father 9) Boss, when job is acquired 10) Chip 11) Not hot but still cool convenience store clerk............................................. ..175) Chip's nephew in Iowa
After reading this thread, I do not believe the core issue is promise-breaking. I believe the real issue is that not going to the wedding is considered to be a perceived slight to Chip's family- which he likely holds more dear to him than anything else- thus acting as a perceived slight to Chip and his core values. I think we have evidence of this when Chip writes about all the events he's attended in support of the daughter as evidence of how much he cares. And he does. The problem is that he's expecting his girlfriend's daughter to demonstrate that she cares in the same way. That's a bit too quid pro quo for most people; not just teenagers.
Now, do I think that Chip's reaction to the situation is a little above the bar? Yeah, but sometimes kids need to learn what over-the-top looks like to know what "reasonable" is; kind of the way we all needed to date "crazy" in college to find out what "normal" looked like. If I were Chip, I'd have one last conversation with the daughter and here's what I'd say:
"<Insert Name>, I wanted to talk to just once more about the wedding you won't be going to with your mother and I. Looking back, I think I made a mistake in assuming that you wanted to go to Iowa with us. I understand that you have a lot of things going on right now and I should have considered your priorities when I asked you to go. I really a appreciate that you said yes at first, and I know that was for me. I want to apologize for my reaction when you backed out. But I want to tell you that the reason I was upset is that I feel that family is the most important thing in the world. I hope you appreciate that because I plan to be in your life for a long time. When your mother and I leave for the wedding, I know that we can both trust you to be very responsible and I want to make sure you know that you can call either of us if you need anything. All I ask is that, in the future, if you have something that takes priority over a request like this please just let me know right away, and I promise to respond way better, deal?" <if Chip extends hand, he'll likely get handshake followed by hug>
Ok. Fixed. Moving on to sports threads.
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
Larry Schuler (05-30-2017),medford (05-31-2017),RedTeamGo! (05-30-2017)
Whatever. Is that point worth a holy crap? What point are you making?
I'm not...it wasn't meant as derogatory towards you or anything. I thought you knew the R stood for Redsfan and all these years (I lurked on redszone starting in 2005 until finally joining many years later) I thought something totally wrong about a users name. Was just like a "whoa I assumed something wrong for 12 years" kind of holy crap.
I actually really liked your post.
Last edited by RedTeamGo!; 05-30-2017 at 11:05 PM.
I think many touched on this, but I've got to ask, you're heading to Iowa (presumably from Cincy) for your cousin and you actually want your girlfriend's daughter and your girlfriend's mother (did I follow that correctly on who's mother/grandmother it is?) with you? Why? Perhaps the grandmother lives with the girlfriend and can't be left at home alone, otherwise, I don't understand why you'd even want them there. Its a chance for you and your girlfriend to get away for a weekend, have some fun, see some of your family (important part being YOUR family, and not theirs), then return back to Cincy to resume life. If I was your nephew, I'd be a little annoyed that I'm paying for dinner and potentially drinks for your girlfriend's daughter and mother at my wedding. While the girl is 18, she wouldn't be the first 18 year old to consume at a family wedding, and the mother may not drink much or at all (heck it might not be an open bar) you're potentially adding $100 + for those 2 people they don't know and may never see again. I'm just curious what makes it so important to you that they attend a wedding 8 hours away for people they don't know? Even if your cousin is one of you best friends, he/she would probably much rather hang out with just you and your girlfriend than having to suffer thru awkward conversation with a grandmother and 18 year old girl. I totally get why the 18 year old girl doesn't exactly want to be there, and doesn't feel obligated.
If the grandmother needs extra help, perhaps the presence of the 18 year old girl was asked to allow you more freedom while there. In that case, I get why you feel betrayed. I don't think I've seen anything stating that, but that is the only situation I can think of where I'd relate to why you'd actually want either there.
As far as the 18 year old girl goes, she sounds like she's all messed up. Perhaps with good reason, but lets be honest, there is 0 reason why a normally healthy 18 year old girl can't find a job doing something. Bagging groceries, waiting on tables, answering phones, etc.... are all jobs often available to someone of that age and experience. It may not be what she wants to do, or pay her what she wants to be paid, but its better than sitting at home doing nothing, getting paid for nothing. In that regard, her mother and father are doing her no favors. If a future employer is worth their salt to work for, and you go into the interview stating "hey I'd love this job" but I know I'm going to be out of town for a prior commitment on this weekend and won't be available, they will agree to it. Its not like 1 missed weekend for a good candidate is going to hold them back from hiring someone. She may not be able to schedule another weekend off down the road for a bit, but if she's upfront about it I'd assume they'd be happier that she was upfront and had good reasoning than just taking the job and telling them a week prior that she won't be in town the following weekend.
This girl is going thru emotional issues from my end of the computer. As others have stated, perhaps she feels lost, she doesn't have a clear path forward in life as those around her are getting ready to move on to their next step. As the mother's boyfriend, unless you can offer her a job or help her pay/get into college of some sorts, you can't really help her. Asking her to attend a wedding in Iowa isn't really helping the root cause of her issues. Get to the root cause and the rest will sort itself out. The wedding itself is a nonissue and the grand scheme. Sticking to promises may be, but the promise here may depend upon many things beyond attending some random wedding in Iowa.
$0.02
ok, you get $0.04 sense now.
I re-read the original post, some more thoughts. She doesn't hate your family, but she likely doesn't care about them either. Why should she, she meet them once a few years back as you stated, she has no relationship with them, no emotional ties. She's not looking for new besties out in Iowa, as you stated this is a small town with presumably little to do. 18 year old Chip R, if put in a similar situation, wouldn't want to attend this event under the same circumstances.
Additionally, it sounds like you were expecting here to hold some sort of financial end of this bargain. If she's already tight on money, this is just an added emotional worry for something she doesn't want to do to begin with. She probably agreed the first time b/c it was easier to appease than to get into a fight. There sounds like there is tension b/w her mother and herself. She's been let down by both her father and grandparents on her father's side. She's having trouble "trusting" people both financially and emotionally, and seemingly with good reason. There may also be feeling of jealousy/resentment that her mother is taking sides with her boyfriend, rather than her.
In all honesty, the best approach is to let her stay home if that is what she wants to at this point, its only going to ruin the weekend. Moving forward, include her in this like this if you want, but don't make it feel like an obligation. She may feel obligations to you, but she won't ever to your extended family. There are many things that need to be worked out that are far more important than a wedding in Iowa or commitments that were likely only made half hardheartedly to begin with. Sort thru those issues with your girlfriend, then let her sort them out with her daughter and the rest will fall into place. 18 is a tough age for someone that has lost their direction.
Last edited by medford; 05-31-2017 at 12:34 PM.
Posting in the clutch since twenty ought two.
Reading all this, I'm just glad my kids are grown up. We went through these things. A lot. Sorry to hear of these difficulties, Chip.
It's a fine line between picking your battles and holding them to their word. There is no right or wrong. I've always said it's a miracle more parents don't murder their children.
Speaking of children that I wanted to kill, my oldest is getting married this weekend. He's grown up into a fine responsible young man. Sometimes you just have to step back and let them grow up in their own time. I stopped being a controlling parent and started being a life coach. Things went better then.
She used to wake me up with coffee ever morning
dfs (06-04-2017),KittyDuran (05-31-2017),RedTeamGo! (06-01-2017)
Life is that simple? Wow, who knew...other than jojo that is.
Do you have kids?
What would you say.....ya do here?
Posting Permissions
|
Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please. |
Reply With Quote