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Thread: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

  1. #61
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Yeah. Hope the Reds are lining up a backup catcher for Barnhart.
    Me too. Mes didn't impress before getting hurt again. If they count on him for anything but draining their bank account they're foolish.
    99% of all numbers only tell 33% of the story so when looking at the numbers remember that numbers is plural...

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  3. #62
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Me too. Mes didn't impress before getting hurt again. If they count on him for anything but draining their bank account they're foolish.
    Mesoraco did rack up 0.4 fWAR last year before getting hurt in only 56 games. That is a little over a 1 fWAR pace for the year. Is that amazing? Absolutely not.

    With that said, how is that not worthy of being a back-up catcher on a bad team? Sure, Mes is likely a sunk cost. But what do the Reds have to lose by running him out there as the short side of the platoon against lefty pitching (against which he is .264/.364/.432 over his career) compared to .204/.264/.280 for Barnhart?

    I am OK with the Reds adding another veteran catcher on a minor league contract with a spring training invite in case Mesoraco is not healthy on Opening Day, especially since Turner seems Louisville bound. However, if Mesoraco is healthy, I see no reason why he should not be the back-up catcher come the beginning of the regular season.

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    *BaseClogger* (11-09-2017)

  5. #63
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    Mesoraco did rack up 0.4 fWAR last year before getting hurt in only 56 games. That is a little over a 1 fWAR pace for the year. Is that amazing? Absolutely not.

    With that said, how is that not worthy of being a back-up catcher on a bad team? Sure, Mes is likely a sunk cost. But what do the Reds have to lose by running him out there as the short side of the platoon against lefty pitching (against which he is .264/.364/.432 over his career) compared to .204/.264/.280 for Barnhart?

    I am OK with the Reds adding another veteran catcher on a minor league contract with a spring training invite in case Mesoraco is not healthy on Opening Day, especially since Turner seems Louisville bound. However, if Mesoraco is healthy, I see no reason why he should not be the back-up catcher come the beginning of the regular season.
    And 0.1 bWAR. He's kind of replacement level these days. I get the argument for him if he could stay healthy, but he can't. So you need a decent 3rd catcher option, and once you have that, do you need Mes?

    Also, one of the chief things I'd want from a backup for Barnhart is the ability to hit southpaws. That would be a backup who could bring something positive to the mix from a team perspective. It's been a few years since Devin did that.
    Wait until the year after next year.

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    RedlegJake (11-10-2017)

  7. #64
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    And 0.1 bWAR. He's kind of replacement level these days. I get the argument for him if he could stay healthy, but he can't. So you need a decent 3rd catcher option, and once you have that, do you need Mes?

    Also, one of the chief things I'd want from a backup for Barnhart is the ability to hit southpaws. That would be a backup who could bring something positive to the mix from a team perspective. It's been a few years since Devin did that.
    I guess you don't need Mes, but I do not believe you could deal him in anything more than a salary dump. And if that is the only way to get him off the team, what is the purpose in dumping him? I have never heard of any clubhouse issues with him, so if he's healthy what is there to lose by letting him get the PAs against lefties? I am cool with adding a third catcher who is a AAAA type on a minor league deal with an invite to Spring Training, but to get an actual upgrade over Mesoraco you would need to spend something and I do not think the cost is worth the benefit.

  8. #65
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    I guess you don't need Mes, but I do not believe you could deal him in anything more than a salary dump. And if that is the only way to get him off the team, what is the purpose in dumping him? I have never heard of any clubhouse issues with him, so if he's healthy what is there to lose by letting him get the PAs against lefties? I am cool with adding a third catcher who is a AAAA type on a minor league deal with an invite to Spring Training, but to get an actual upgrade over Mesoraco you would need to spend something and I do not think the cost is worth the benefit.
    You couldn't deal Mes for an empty can of soup.

    Seeing that he's replacement-level, you actually don't need to spend much to upgrade him. And a AAAA type might very well wind up being a better player. The three things I'd be looking for in backup catcher are reliability, solid defense and the ability to put a bit of a hurt on LHPs. I don't know what the Reds' criteria are, but I suspect reliability is on their list.
    Wait until the year after next year.

  9. #66
    Member Z-Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Like it or not, I think the guy you are referring to is Stuart Turner.
    WHEN DOES IT STOP!?!?

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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You clearly have no clue how statcast works.

    And none of the games he missed cost him the GG because apparently voting was due in early September.
    OK genius. Make is clearer for us to understand.
    I read and analyzed your link.
    I find it hard to believe that every fly ball can metrically be assigned a difficulty factor with accuracy. The data used for that would have to have lift angle, direction angle, speed off the bat and throw in the fence factor. Statcast claims to use Catch Probability expresses the likelihood for a ball to be caught by an outfielder based on opportunity time, distance needed, and direction. “Opportunity time” starts when the ball is released by the pitcher, and “distance needed” is the shortest distance needed to make the catch. This system may claim to have all of this included in the data used. I question if that data is valid and that the data can is captured for every ball hit in baseball.
    The Outs Above Average board shows Hamilton and Duvall very close to being equal. Get serious. Watch the Reds daily and you know this is not true.
    With that being said, the awards are based on 25% from "sabermetrics and 75% from coaches and managers, so the StatCast can't be blamed for all of the injustice.
    I plan to get a good look at Buxton and Incaiarte next season. They must be bade dudes if they are that better in CF than Billy Hamilton.

  11. #68
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfoot52 View Post
    OK genius.
    No problem with the rest of the post but was that really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfoot52 View Post
    I plan to get a good look at Buxton and Incaiarte next season. They must be bade dudes if they are that better in CF than Billy Hamilton.
    Seriously, Inciarte in particular is amazing. CF defense the conversation starts and ends with these three. Each one that wasn't picked coulda shoulda been. They should split award into golden thumb, golden web and golden fingers and give each one....
    99% of all numbers only tell 33% of the story so when looking at the numbers remember that numbers is plural...

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    Raisor (11-10-2017),Roy Tucker (11-14-2017)

  13. #69
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    I love that someone thinks that Doug should watch the Reds daily.

    Get out of your parent's basement Douglas!

  14. #70
    Member texasdave's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    No problem with the rest of the post but was that really necessary?



    Seriously, Inciarte in particular is amazing. CF defense the conversation starts and ends with these three. Each one that wasn't picked coulda shoulda been. They should split award into golden thumb, golden web and golden fingers and give each one....
    Was this necessary?
    You clearly have no idea how Statcast works.
    I think a little more respect could have been shown by BOTH posters, but it was not a one-way street.

  15. #71
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I love that someone thinks that Doug should watch the Reds daily.

    Get out of your parent's basement Douglas!
    Doug may actually be a 14 year old girl who invented the Doug persona to get a job writing about baseball.
    https://deadspin.com/teen-girl-posed...abo-1820305588
    Last edited by klw; 11-10-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  16. #72
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfoot52 View Post
    OK genius. Make is clearer for us to understand.
    I read and analyzed your link.
    I find it hard to believe that every fly ball can metrically be assigned a difficulty factor with accuracy. The data used for that would have to have lift angle, direction angle, speed off the bat and throw in the fence factor. Statcast claims to use Catch Probability expresses the likelihood for a ball to be caught by an outfielder based on opportunity time, distance needed, and direction. “Opportunity time” starts when the ball is released by the pitcher, and “distance needed” is the shortest distance needed to make the catch. This system may claim to have all of this included in the data used. I question if that data is valid and that the data can is captured for every ball hit in baseball.
    The Outs Above Average board shows Hamilton and Duvall very close to being equal. Get serious. Watch the Reds daily and you know this is not true.
    With that being said, the awards are based on 25% from "sabermetrics and 75% from coaches and managers, so the StatCast can't be blamed for all of the injustice.
    I plan to get a good look at Buxton and Incaiarte next season. They must be bade dudes if they are that better in CF than Billy Hamilton.
    They use radar to track launch angle, exit velocity to track a large majority of the baseballs hit. They also track how far the player had to run to make the catch, the route they took versus the route they should have taken (re: straight line from starting point to end point of the catch, or where the ball landed) and how long the ball was in the air. They then take that data and figure out how often like-hit balls are caught and not caught. Not every play is tracked. A very large majority of them, however, are.

    You can question the data, I guess. But it's weird to question it immediately while not having the slightest clue of how the system worked or what it measured. You immediately came in and said no way, I don't trust the data. But then you also claimed you had no idea what the data was actually measuring, or how it was measuring. Doesn't that seem intellectually dishonest?

    And yes, Buxton and Inciarte are very bad dudes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    Was this necessary?
    Yes, it was. Because it's clear that they don't have a clue how statcast works. And they then verified with their reply, that, no, they don't have a clue how it worked.

  17. #73
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Z-Fly View Post
    Like it or not, I think the guy you are referring to is Stuart Turner.
    The Jeopardy answer for Stuart Turner is "Who was the worst position player in MLB in 2017?"
    Wait until the year after next year.

  18. #74
    Member Z-Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm just saying he's the 3rd catcher.
    WHEN DOES IT STOP!?!?

  19. #75
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
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    Reds defense and Gold Gloves 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    The three things I'd be looking for in backup catcher are reliability, solid defense and the ability to put a bit of a hurt on LHPs.
    I get the RH hitter part (although I doubt the Reds see Barnhart as a platoon player since hes a switch hitter and theyre not creative enough to look at splits), but why are the other two priorities? Why is defense more important than hitting, and why reliability over upside?

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    *BaseClogger* (11-11-2017)


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