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Thread: Zach Vincej lost

  1. #31
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Not that Tim Adleman has been great, but the 1st time through a lineup, he hasn't been bad. In 2017 guys hit .234/.313/.437 with 16 walks and 46 strikeouts against him in 179 plate appearances. He gets significantly worse the 2nd, and then 3rd time through the lineup. Could be a useful reliever. Probably not too useful as a starter except that his arm seems like it's capable of remaining attached.
    Adleman over his two year career in pitches 1 - 25:
    58 IP
    21 BB
    58 K
    10 HR
    .237 .309 .439 .747

    That's... serviceable, I suppose.

    An odd thing about Adleman's numbers is how well he works with Tucker Barnhart rather than Mesoraco. A nearly three run difference in ERA. They're small samples, but not too small.

    That said, I hope Adleman is looked at as a fungible arm at this point.
    Last edited by Bourgeois Zee; 11-04-2017 at 01:03 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    All good points on Adleman, but does anyone think he would have been picked by anyone on waivers? That’s what’s puzzling to me.
    Yes, I think there’s a decent chance.

    Smart GMs aren’t only chasing last year’s stats. They see cheap, experienced, pitching depth as valuable. Adleman had some good starts, then faded, I could see interest.

    Not sure why Vincej or Wallach or Ferrell or similar guys are more valuable than Adleman. Those three were selected off waivers.

    Former Red David Holmberg, an innings eater, pitched in 37 games for the Chisox last year, 7 starts. Similar situation.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-04-2017 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #33
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Yes, I think there’s a decent chance.

    Smart GMs aren’t only chasing last year’s stats. They see cheap, experienced, pitching depth as valuable. Adleman had some good starts last year and he very well may have been selected.

    For a team focused on pitching depth, not sure why Vincej or Wallach or Ferrell or similar guys are more valuable than Adleman. Those three were selected off waivers.

    Former Red David Holmberg, also an innings eater, pitched in 37 games for the Chisox last year, 7 starts.
    All those guys are young, and have a chance at improving. Adleman is 30. I don’t see any other team wasting a 40man roster spot on a 30 year old, replacement level middle pitcher.

    And I’m guessing there are plenty of guys like Adleman who can be signed as minor leagues free agents this off season. He’s a dime a dozen talent, easy to find, easy to replace.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  5. #34
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    All those guys are young, and have a chance at improving. Adleman is 30. I don’t see any other team wasting a 40man roster spot on a 30 year old, replacement level middle pitcher.

    And I’m guessing there are plenty of guys like Adleman who can be signed as minor leagues free agents this off season. He’s a dime a dozen talent, easy to find, easy to replace.
    Tim Adleman has proven in the big leagues what he can do. Those minor league free agents, well, they haven't. I think you are underselling that part of it.

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  7. #35
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    All those guys are young, and have a chance at improving. Adleman is 30. I don’t see any other team wasting a 40man roster spot on a 30 year old, replacement level middle pitcher.

    And I’m guessing there are plenty of guys like Adleman who can be signed as minor leagues free agents this off season. He’s a dime a dozen talent, easy to find, easy to replace.
    The youth of Vincej, or Wallach, or Ferrell is irrelevant. None is a future prospect being taken for his long term promise. Adleman at age 30 is just as capable of being an emergency or backup player next year.

    Indeed Adleman has more MLB experience. So he may be more valuable.

    As for Tim being easy to replace, why replace him if you already have him? The Reds have 7 open roster spots. If they need more they can cut Adleman. No need to do so now.

    I’m not a huge Time Adleman fan, I just think it’s more griping about nothing. It’s a perfectly rational decision.

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  9. #36
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Tim Adleman has proven in the big leagues what he can do. Those minor league free agents, well, they haven't. I think you are underselling that part of it.
    There are plenty of guys who have pitched in the majors, who now are free agents, who can be signed to minor league deals.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  10. #37
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The youth of Vincej, or Wallach, or Ferrell is irrelevant. None is a future prospect being taken for his long term promise. Adleman at age 30 is just as capable of being an emergency or backup player next year.

    Indeed Adleman has more MLB experience. So he may be more valuable.

    As for Tim being easy to replace, why replace him if you already have him? The Reds have 7 open roster spots. If they need more they can cut Adleman. No need to do so now.

    I’m not a huge Time Adleman fan, I just think it’s more griping about nothing. It’s a perfectly rational decision.
    When the choice is losing a Vincej or Adleman, the choices should be obvious. One could become a usefu MLB player. One has proven thst he is not.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  11. #38
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    There are plenty of guys who have pitched in the majors, who now are free agents, who can be signed to minor league deals.
    Ones that did so last year? Ones that showed well the first time through the lineup last year?

  12. #39
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    When the choice is losing a Vincej or Adleman, the choices should be obvious. One could become a usefu MLB player. One has proven thst he is not.
    If you put Zach Vincej at third base, he'd be useless. Adleman isn't a big league starter. He's been forced into that role out of absolute need. Adleman the 1-2 inning reliever is a lot different of a guy, value wise, than Adleman the 5 inning guy he's been asked to be. What Adleman has proven is that he's not a quality 5-inning guy. You're equating that failure with he can't succeed in any role. That may not be accurate and the evidence suggests that it isn't.

  13. #40
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Ones that did so last year? Ones that showed well the first time through the lineup last year?
    Without doing research, I will guess a very strong yes, if you mean they had the same success Adleman had last year.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  14. #41
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If you put Zach Vincej at third base, he'd be useless. Adleman isn't a big league starter. He's been forced into that role out of absolute need. Adleman the 1-2 inning reliever is a lot different of a guy, value wise, than Adleman the 5 inning guy he's been asked to be. What Adleman has proven is that he's not a quality 5-inning guy. You're equating that failure with he can't succeed in any role. That may not be accurate and the evidence suggests that it isn't.
    Why put Vincej at 3B? We know he is a solid defensive SS. We don't know Adleman can be a successful MLB reliever. Maybe he can, but he may not be able to handle that role. We know Vincej can handle SS defensively.

    Also, who will be the Reds backup SS now? If Peraza is starting, who is the backup? Losing Vincej means the Reds have to use resources to get a back SS.

    The Reds lost a known, usable talent with upside, in order to keep a known failure at one role, in the hopes that maybe he can succeed in another role. As Spock would say, highly illogical.
    The team Matheny described several times this weekend as the team he thinks the Cardinals could be, is actually the team the Reds have become.

  15. #42
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    When the choice is losing a Vincej or Adleman, the choices should be obvious. One could become a usefu MLB player. One has proven thst he is not.
    Incorrect way of looking at it IMO. Neither player is a prospect. Vincej will be 27 on May 1, 2018 and the Reds have obviously concluded he won’t hit MLB pitching. Adleman will pitch as a 30 year old next year and has clear limitations.

    With these type players you aren’t chasing some future improvement. If so, you’d never move on, never have roster room for the real prospects coming up.

    With these types you ask who helps me most next year in an emergency/backup situation.

    Even if one likes Vincej, it’s perfectly rational for the Reds to protect their pitching staff first and foremost. They will add a veteran shortstop to bolster that position on the MLB roster.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-04-2017 at 02:13 PM.

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  17. #43
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Why put Vincej at 3B? We know he is a solid defensive SS. We don't know Adleman can be a successful MLB reliever. Maybe he can, but he may not be able to handle that role. We know Vincej can handle SS defensively.

    Also, who will be the Reds backup SS now? If Peraza is starting, who is the backup? Losing Vincej means the Reds have to use resources to get a back SS.

    The Reds lost a known, usable talent with upside, in order to keep a known failure at one role, in the hopes that maybe he can succeed in another role. As Spock would say, highly illogical.
    Why put Adleman in the rotation? Because you absolutely had no other choice. Your issue with Adleman is that he sucked. Except you're only viewing him in a role he's not suited for, but was forced into. While arguing that the other guy could become a useful big leaguer. So I offered up a way that Vincej would be completely useless: By playing him in a spot he's not suited for. Like the Reds had to do with Adleman.

    I'm not arguing the virtues of keeping Vincej/Adleman/whoever. I'm arguing your possibly flawed reasoning that Tim Adleman is useless and sucks and has no way of helping the Reds.

    And, the only upside of Zach Vincej is that he's maybe, MAYBE a backup shortstop. He's going to be a 27-year-old next year with 9 total Major League plate appearances who couldn't OPS .700 in Triple-A last season as a 26-year-old. He's the very definition of no-upside.

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  19. #44
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    Vincej is the bud select 55 version of Zack Cozart before Zack Cozart became a solid hitter at the major league level. Vincej is as fungible as fungible could be. For all the struggles Cozart had at the MLB level offensively, he was quite a bit better in the minors than Vincej. Glad to see we are beyond the days of making sure Juan Castro 2.0 is holding down a roster spot.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

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  21. #45
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Zach Vincej lost

    So for the first 25 pitches or so, the league hit about like Hanley Ramirez against Adelman and then he gets worse. Why is that an argument for keeping him again?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH


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