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Thread: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

  1. #1
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    I'm kicking myself for not buying bitcoin over the summer when I really wanted to first go ahead and do it. It's up nearly 70% since then. Now, since I'm broke, I wouldn't have actually made that much money since I probably would have only been buying a few hundred dollars worth. Still, you've got to start somewhere. Today I bit the bullet and bought small amounts of bitcoin and ethereum. We will see what happens over the next few months in this market. Does anyone out there have any money into any altcoins?

    As for investing in the stock market - I've never done it either. But I plan to change that starting in January once I figure out my tax situation and how much I owe. Ideally, though, my plan is to put whatever "extra" money into the market each month that I can. I've got two stocks I like that, unless something changes, will probably be where I'll be investing. We're probably talking somewhere between $100-300 a month, so nothing big. There may even be months where it doesn't get anything put in. My best friend is probably the guy I'll go to for where to get everything started when the time comes, but do you have any places to avoid, or places you recommend for buying/selling?

    Complete newbie here, so I'm willing to listen to any advice you've got to offer.

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    Patrick Bateman (01-28-2018)

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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I'm kicking myself for not buying bitcoin over the summer when I really wanted to first go ahead and do it. It's up nearly 70% since then. Now, since I'm broke, I wouldn't have actually made that much money since I probably would have only been buying a few hundred dollars worth. Still, you've got to start somewhere. Today I bit the bullet and bought small amounts of bitcoin and ethereum. We will see what happens over the next few months in this market. Does anyone out there have any money into any altcoins?

    As for investing in the stock market - I've never done it either. But I plan to change that starting in January once I figure out my tax situation and how much I owe. Ideally, though, my plan is to put whatever "extra" money into the market each month that I can. I've got two stocks I like that, unless something changes, will probably be where I'll be investing. We're probably talking somewhere between $100-300 a month, so nothing big. There may even be months where it doesn't get anything put in. My best friend is probably the guy I'll go to for where to get everything started when the time comes, but do you have any places to avoid, or places you recommend for buying/selling?

    Complete newbie here, so I'm willing to listen to any advice you've got to offer.
    Dealing with individual stocks requires much more than just “liking the business” or thinking it will “take off.” You may know that.

    Whatever companies you are looking at do you know their P/E, cash flow, debt situation etc...stuff like that is just scraping the surface. Just about everything you can think of has been priced into the current price of a stock.

    For 90%+ of investors out there it is best to regularly put their money in a low-fee broad market ETF and just let it sit. The market is at record highs right now, so equities aren’t cheap. Bitcoin is a big gamble...are you a gambling man? You have to start somewhere and I wish you the best of luck.

    /I’m an amateur so consider my advice amateurish and not from a professional

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Dealing with individual stocks requires much more than just “liking the business” or thinking it will “take off.” You may know that.

    Whatever companies you are looking at do you know their P/E, cash flow, debt situation etc...stuff like that is just scraping the surface. Just about everything you can think of has been priced into the current price of a stock.

    For 90%+ of investors out there it is best to regularly put their money in a low-fee broad market ETF and just let it sit. The market is at record highs right now, so equities aren’t cheap. Bitcoin is a big gamble...are you a gambling man? You have to start somewhere and I wish you the best of luck.

    /I’m an amateur so consider my advice amateurish and not from a professional
    The bitcoin thing is more just for fun. I'm not going to put anymore money into it than I did today. If it literally drops to zero dollars, I'll be fine taking the hit.

    My investments for 2018 are likely to be Amazon and Facebook. I've thought about doing the ETF thing, and it could be something I go with at some point in the future, too.

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    kaldaniels (11-24-2017)

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    Overton Window Breaker WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    If you've got limited funds each month to invest, but want to get into individual stocks, I suggest DRIP funds. loyal3.com is a good site to start with.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    lol I had a couple grand in bitcoin at one time, sold it when Mt. Gox went under. Little bit of a mistake - it'd be worth $80k now.

    Easy come, easy go. I'm not kicking myself too much, there was no world in which I'd have held it this long.
    “When I use a word,” Trumpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Trumpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Who knows, but it doesn't seem like a good time to get into any of bitcoin, AMZN or FB. They all seem like assets that have had crazy runups with more room to run to the downside than to the upside.

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    Rojo (11-25-2017)

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    lol I had a couple grand in bitcoin at one time, sold it when Mt. Gox went under. Little bit of a mistake - it'd be worth $80k now.

    Easy come, easy go. I'm not kicking myself too much, there was no world in which I'd have held it this long.
    A minor leaguer started telling me to buy bitcoin back in 2015. I really, really hope that he's been putting money into it since then. I should have listened to him.

    If I had gotten in and a low price, even a year ago, there's no way I'd still be in, either. At least to the point where I wouldn't have sold a vast majority of it.

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Who knows, but it doesn't seem like a good time to get into any of bitcoin, AMZN or FB. They all seem like assets that have had crazy runups with more room to run to the downside than to the upside.
    I feel a little better about Amazon than Facebook. Amazon is ahead of the voice stuff. Everyone is getting into it. "Buy Product XYZ" is real freakin' easy. I think that is going to work out real well for them over the next 5 years. Facebook just has the attention of everyone over 25. Maybe it's not a long term, 20 year thing, but right now, it's where everyone is at that has disposable income. As long as this whole net neutrality issue doesn't get us all off of the internet..... I think both will be alright for quite a while into the future. We shall see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    If you've got limited funds each month to invest, but want to get into individual stocks, I suggest DRIP funds. loyal3.com is a good site to start with.
    While I can certainly google this stuff, if you can explain what a DRIP fund is without spending more than 2 minutes typing it, I'd be thankful. If not, I'll check into it later.

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    Member Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    FWIW here is my advise:

    if you know nothing about investing you need to learn, otherwise you can just spin your wheels for the rest of your life. diehards.org is a good place to start if you know nothing or next to nothing about investing. its a site that is mostly people who buy Vanguard index funds and Vanguard bond funds and who like to invest cheaply & be well diversified.

    low cost index funds/ETFs are a good long term bet. and stocks should always be long term bets. you could split your stock allocation 70% in a total market USA index and 30% in an international index.
    as to how much bonds/cash you should have that's an individual choice but some allocation to money markets funds, high quality short term bond funds & inflation hedged bonds (TIPs) is a good idea as it helps you when the market crashes (and it will crash big time, it always does). I've invested through the 2000-2001 & the 2008-2009 crashes and saw many people sell when they've already lost their money. people get irrational and "buy high & sell low". having some cash to buy low helps ease the sting of your losses and keep you in the game.

    if you want a real live person to manage your money then look at the Vanguard Wellington fund. 60% stocks and 40% bonds, very low fees, conservative management style.

    I own some individual stocks mostly in areas that are either stable value plays (because bond yield have been terrible for 10+ years) or areas that zig when the market zags (say gold mining). but building a portfolio of stocks is IMO not the way to meet your financial goals. the market could double in 10 years and you could own all the worst stocks. you need diversification which you can't get without 30+ stocks in multiple sectors. its easier to simply buy an index and take a nap.
    .

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    Overton Window Breaker WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I feel a little better about Amazon than Facebook. Amazon is ahead of the voice stuff. Everyone is getting into it. "Buy Product XYZ" is real freakin' easy. I think that is going to work out real well for them over the next 5 years. Facebook just has the attention of everyone over 25. Maybe it's not a long term, 20 year thing, but right now, it's where everyone is at that has disposable income. As long as this whole net neutrality issue doesn't get us all off of the internet..... I think both will be alright for quite a while into the future. We shall see.

    - - - Updated - - -



    While I can certainly google this stuff, if you can explain what a DRIP fund is without spending more than 2 minutes typing it, I'd be thankful. If not, I'll check into it later.
    Dividend reinvestment stocks. Basically you buy fractions of shares of a given stock (I've seen well known companies like Tesla and Starbucks). I was investing $50-100 at a time for awhile. Then any dividends earned by the stock get reinvested as well. There are almost no transaction fees either. And you aren't obligated to keep your money tied up for any length of time, so liquidity isn't an issue. The real advantage, though, is being able to buy into expensive stocks without the upfront costs.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Who knows, but it doesn't seem like a good time to get into any of bitcoin, AMZN or FB. They all seem like assets that have had crazy runups with more room to run to the downside than to the upside.
    Just for those not in the know...

    AMZN has a P/E (price/earnings) of about 300 right now. Dow stocks usually run in the 15-20 range (that’s off the top of my head) on average. That means shareholders will be needing to see AMZN grow their profit by 20ish fold to make the current price make sense. Or in other words the market will need to see (is betting on) huge profit growth...something AMZN is capable of...but any hitch in profit growth or (gulp) antitrust issue could send it plunging.

    FB on the other hand has a P/E of 33. So the market in a way (it’s not THAT simple) is betting that FB is only going to double its profit. I’m actually suprised it is that “cheap” in this tech-fueled bull market.

    It’s vastly more complicated than that and you could break it down much further on both those companies. I just took a quick peek at them after you mentioned them Doug. Interesting contrast.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    I tried to buy 20 bitcoin back 3 years ago just after I moved to Canada. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to get it done with the IDs I had at the time. Shame -- I think it was a few hundred bucks a pop back then. Could have made an awful lot of money.

    Based on what I know from my stats background -- invest in indexed funds and be done with it. Even when people beat the market for decades on end, there's little evidence they're doing more than getting really, really lucky. A lot of the profit made in trading is made the same way bookies make bank, by trading other people's money, taking a cut of the action, and winning either way.

    With the way the volume of trading has shot through the roof with high-speed firms, I can't imagine there are edges to be had by the casual investor. If you aren't able to actually become an expert in the thing you're about to invest in, spread your money wide, protect your downside risk, and trust in human progress.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Moderator JaxRed's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    I'll throw my .02 into the ring also. I've been involved with the stock market off and on since about 1973. Mostly off. The last 15 years or so of my working life i was pretty diligent putting money away in IRA's/401ks. But I was just putting them in mutual funds.

    I started retreating from work about 2010, and only worked part time for the next 5 years, and then retired in spring of 2015. But with all the spare time I now had, I started REALLY following my finances with a goal of being a little bit better off every single month. Bought (financed) two rental properties in Phoenix in 2011. And in April 2012 got back into the market. Been there ever since.

    Since I started when I was already basically out of the workforce I was investing for income. So all of my stocks/funds produced income, and the goal was to have more income every month. As long as you don't withdraw all your dividends it basically takes care of itself. I wish I had been doing this all along.

    Here's my opinion: You're not really talking about investing. You're talking about gambling. I bought $1,000 worth of BitCoin over the summer. It's worth $1,800 now. But I am not investing. It's a total gamble just like buying lotto tickets. So buying Amazon, Google, Netflix, Facebook, etc. are just slightly more sophisticated gambling.

    I don't consider buying mutual funds investing either. You're just saving and someone else is doing the investing. Which is fine... they are professionals.

    But I think actually having a brokerage IRA or 401k and buying individual stocks is a great way to learn about investing.


    This thread talked me through the Bitcoin Process. I own at Coinbase

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/inves...g-bitcoin.html
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  22. #14
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I tried to buy 20 bitcoin back 3 years ago just after I moved to Canada. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to get it done with the IDs I had at the time. Shame -- I think it was a few hundred bucks a pop back then. Could have made an awful lot of money.

    Based on what I know from my stats background -- invest in indexed funds and be done with it. Even when people beat the market for decades on end, there's little evidence they're doing more than getting really, really lucky. A lot of the profit made in trading is made the same way bookies make bank, by trading other people's money, taking a cut of the action, and winning either way.

    With the way the volume of trading has shot through the roof with high-speed firms, I can't imagine there are edges to be had by the casual investor. If you aren't able to actually become an expert in the thing you're about to invest in, spread your money wide, protect your downside risk, and trust in human progress.
    So, open up my own trading firm?

    *Googles how to do this*

    Oh.

  23. #15
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Buying Altcoins/Bitcoins and investing in the stock market

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    But I think actually having a brokerage IRA or 401k and buying individual stocks is a great way to learn about investing.
    I've worked a "real" job for about a year during my entire adult life, spread out over three jobs. Not having a place to start and contribute to a 401K is one of those things that I always look back on and wish were a little different about the path I chose.

    This thread talked me through the Bitcoin Process. I own at Coinbase

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/inves...g-bitcoin.html
    I'm also going through coinbase


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