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Thread: Ball at it again.....

  1. #16
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Minor league basketball has been tried a million times, and it's never delivered fans. The Basketball Tournament is cool, but you gave away the issue when you said why you watched it: you knew the guys from their time at OSU.
    That's true. I think if you attach teams to cities you could combat that issue a little bit.

    The world is a lot different now. Telling me minor league basketball didn't work in the past where you had way less outlets as potential tv partners doesn't say much.
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  3. #17
    Did we just become BFF's dubc47834's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Ice Cubes Big 3 league was pretty popular last year as well. Did well enough it is back for a second year. I know it sold out some pretty big names arenas.
    I'm out...like a fat kid in dodgeball

  4. #18
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    Ice Cubes Big 3 league was pretty popular last year as well. Did well enough it is back for a second year. I know it sold out some pretty big names arenas.
    The Big 3 was entertaining because it was guys you knew and watched play for years. Each team had multiple guys you knew well, and had at least one headliner that was a star in his past. The TBT was fun because I was watching the OSU greats from a few years ago.

    Minor league basketball will struggle unless there is a substantial investment from the NBA. Because there really isn't a whole lot of draw to watching fringe players play in no name arenas. But more importantly I think you need to invest in good coaching to develop players.

  5. #19
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Minor league basketball has been tried a million times, and it's never delivered fans. The Basketball Tournament is cool, but you gave away the issue when you said why you watched it: you knew the guys from their time at OSU.
    There is already minor league basketball with the NCAA. I'd say it has about the same likelihood of success as a minor league football league would.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    That's true. I think if you attach teams to cities you could combat that issue a little bit.

    The world is a lot different now. Telling me minor league basketball didn't work in the past where you had way less outlets as potential tv partners doesn't say much.
    I would also argue that the NBA is minor league basketball
    Can't win with 'em

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  6. #20
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Seems to me the goal ought to be minor league baseball success. Go in to a town where if you draw 3K you would be doing well. Make the draft kind of regional --each team would draft 5 players from a local college....maybe they would have to have one player on the roster from each DIV 1 school within 50 miles. The G League is triple A and they have more resources -this would probably be more of a double A league. A single A league would be a town with a population of at least 40K and they would also have strong regional ties. Heck, if you kept the prices low --every town that had a high school could have a "town" team --it may be below Rookie ball or even good independent baseball, but if you kept prices low ...say 2 dollars and you stuck it out for 10 years -there would be enough town pride to develop a league that would be connected to a town and it might be 7 layers down. " Tonight at the local high school ...tiny Winchester, Indiana (alumni 4,000) plays Lakota East, Cincinnati, Ohio (alumni 50,000)" -if Winchester wins they get a ton of computer points or move up a league, etc..." Town or high school pride would be a major factor. What's odd to me is that with more media outlets and opportunities --we have less teams and leagues to get behind --i think it's doable -- baseball had a 60 year start on basketball. I do know this --if Winchester beat Richmond in anything.....it would be a big deal

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  8. #21
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Unless the system is revamped, Minor League Basketball will continue to be a tough sell even with NBA backing compared with Minor League Baseball and Hockey, respectively for the following reasons:

    1)Fair or not, the perception exists (and will continue to do so) that if a player isn't currently property of an NBA team or playing overseas -- and this comparison doesn't include one-and-done talent currently in college and/or NBA draftees/high-profile Rookie Free Agent signees -- said player is simply a fringe player.

    2)Even though the G-League is moving in this direction, Minor League Basketball remains well behind its Baseball and Hockey counterparts from the standpoint of the number of affiliates with parent teams.

    3)College Basketball remains much more popular than its College Baseball and Hockey counterparts, as the latter two are largely viewed as "regional" sports. Therefore -- and traderumor was is spot-on with this -- NCAA Hoops is viewed as the minor league hoops system.

    4)Props to bucksfan2 for alluding to this -- and I say this as a resident of a city with a G-League team, albeit a city with NBA history -- even with NBA backing, far too many G-League teams are based in no-name cities with no-name arenas. Therefore, the chances of attracting meaningful exposure Nationwide are greatly diminished.

    While mixing such markets with Major Markets seems to work with Minor League baseball and hockey, it has proven time and time again to be an abject failure with Minor League Basketball, and a huge reason why, for example, CBA teams in Major League cities ALWAYS failed. For example, if you live in, say, San Diego (a major market with no NBA team), selling Sioux Fall, Yakima and Rockford as opponents just doesn't have the same ring as San Diego vs. Jacksonville, St.Louis or Buffalo.

    Now, the G-League appears to be eventually moving in this direction and in markets the size of LA, Chicago and NYC, the markets are large enough to place a G-League team there, but IMHO, the remainder of G-League franchises should be based in the largest non-NBA markets (something that Redsfaithful suggested). For example:

    Cavs -- Columbus
    Pacers -- Cincy
    76ers -- Pittsburgh
    Raptors -- Buffalo

    Well, you get the picture..

    Doing so may also help to garner more NBA interest in non-NBA Major markets as icing on the cake; not to mention garnering significantly higher TV ratings/marketing opportunities, leading to a higher G League pay scale. Should that occur, rather than toiling in cities that, for the most part, require a Puddle Jumper to reach, the G League would become enough of an appealing option for certain players who would otherwise be forced to play overseas.
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  10. #22
    We are back! Assembly Hall's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Unless the system is revamped, Minor League Basketball will continue to be a tough sell even with NBA backing compared with Minor League Baseball and Hockey, respectively for the following reasons:

    1)Fair or not, the perception exists (and will continue to do so) that if a player isn't currently property of an NBA team or playing overseas -- and this comparison doesn't include one-and-done talent currently in college and/or NBA draftees/high-profile Rookie Free Agent signees -- said player is simply a fringe player.

    2)Even though the G-League is moving in this direction, Minor League Basketball remains well behind its Baseball and Hockey counterparts from the standpoint of the number of affiliates with parent teams.

    3)College Basketball remains much more popular than its College Baseball and Hockey counterparts, as the latter two are largely viewed as "regional" sports. Therefore -- and traderumor was is spot-on with this -- NCAA Hoops is viewed as the minor league hoops system.

    4)Props to bucksfan2 for alluding to this -- and I say this as a resident of a city with a G-League team, albeit a city with NBA history -- even with NBA backing, far too many G-League teams are based in no-name cities with no-name arenas. Therefore, the chances of attracting meaningful exposure Nationwide are greatly diminished.

    While mixing such markets with Major Markets seems to work with Minor League baseball and hockey, it has proven time and time again to be an abject failure with Minor League Basketball, and a huge reason why, for example, CBA teams in Major League cities ALWAYS failed. For example, if you live in, say, San Diego (a major market with no NBA team), selling Sioux Fall, Yakima and Rockford as opponents just doesn't have the same ring as San Diego vs. Jacksonville, St.Louis or Buffalo.

    Now, the G-League appears to be eventually moving in this direction and in markets the size of LA, Chicago and NYC, the markets are large enough to place a G-League team there, but IMHO, the remainder of G-League franchises should be based in the largest non-NBA markets (something that Redsfaithful suggested). For example:

    Cavs -- Columbus
    Pacers -- Cincy
    76ers -- Pittsburgh
    Raptors -- Buffalo

    Well, you get the picture..

    Doing so may also help to garner more NBA interest in non-NBA Major markets as icing on the cake; not to mention garnering significantly higher TV ratings/marketing opportunities, leading to a higher G League pay scale. Should that occur, rather than toiling in cities that, for the most part, require a Puddle Jumper to reach, the G League would become enough of an appealing option for certain players who would otherwise be forced to play overseas.
    Great post, but I got a question......Do you know Ft. Wayne's attendance figures for home games?
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

  11. #23
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    the G League would become enough of an appealing option for certain players who would otherwise be forced to play overseas.
    This is a big wild card that I think gets ignored. How many guys might be willing to come home and play in a tier 2 league if the pay was competitive?

    I am going to go Buckeyes because I am more familiar with them, but look at these guys playing overseas:

    Jon Diebler
    Daequan Cook
    Aaron Craft
    David Lighty
    Marc Loving
    Byron (BJ) Mullens
    Evan Ravenel
    Shannon Scott
    Jared Sullinger
    Deshaun Thomas
    Trevor Thompson
    Amir Williams

    I am not saying that's an all star team or making any commentary here, I'm just saying a league where you put a team with 4-5 of those guys in Columbus plus some 18 year old draft prospects, and they play other big college cities ... would that not be a good tv product? I know UC, Louisville, and Kentucky could all put together fun teams of guys who still play for a living but not in the NBA (maybe not Kentucky since all their guys stick in the NBA lol).

    I think it would be. But I know some of these guys get paid really well overseas, so that might kill the idea.

    The exciting thing for me, would be if you moved to a soccer model, where you might have a regular season, but then your local team also play events like The Basketball Tournament. And maybe even get some sort of Champion's League going for basketball. Yeah, the NBA champ would dominate, but so what? It would be a lot of fun, and basketball is world wide and could support it.
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
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  13. #24
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    Great post, but I got a question......Do you know Ft. Wayne's attendance figures for home games?
    Through their first eight home games, the Mad Ants' average announced attendance is 2,808, the fifth highest in the 26-team G League, and according to records obtained from the Coliseum, the number of people actually attending Mad Ants game was 1,658 per night.
    http://www.journalgazette.net/sports...eum-optimistic
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  15. #25
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Thank you and to ask another question.....what is the attendance for Komets games?
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

  16. #26
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    Thank you and to ask another question.....what is the attendance for Komets games?
    7526 this season.

    But as we know, Minor League Hockey is FAR more popular than Minor League Basketball, as NCAA Hockey isn't nearly as popular as NCAA FB or NCAA hoops.
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  17. #27
    We are back! Assembly Hall's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    7526 this season.

    But as we know, Minor League Hockey is FAR more popular than Minor League Basketball, as NCAA Hockey isn't nearly as popular as NCAA FB or NCAA hoops.
    That number is the average attendance per game?
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

  18. #28
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    That number is the average attendance per game?
    Yes.

    http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...L2004&sid=2018
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  20. #29
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Minor league hockey has had much longer to establish itself than minor league basketball -i think it takes 40 years to really establish a fan base. How do i know that --pure guess and i think Bill James said 50 years in one of his books i read.

    You know -- a good place to start and see how long it takes for something to get established is college basketball. What if we took a team in top 100, 200, and 300 to see how long it took them to get to 3,000 fans (i was going to use 5K but i wasn't sure i could find a 300 level team that hit 5K in attendance). Let's try to use teams close to 100 level the last 5-10 years using sagarin as the model. Try to pick a team that's been near the levels given for last 5-10 years --right now Connecticut is 92...don't pick them -they are better than that and they have been better than that over last 5 -10 years. How about Nebraska? They seem like a 100 level sagarin team --how long did it take them to get to 3000 fans ? 200 level - Fairfield? i think they played Dayton in the NIT in the late 70's --how long it take them to get to 3000 fans? 300 level-Howard -i tried to pick a team that's been around for a while- has Howard ever got to 3000 fans before? We want to know when they started their program and how many years it took them to get there. Help me if you can --i may try to start a minor league basketball league tomorrow. I take that back --after xmas would be better timing

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  22. #30
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    Re: Ball at it again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Minor league hockey has had much longer to establish itself than minor league basketball -i think it takes 40 years to really establish a fan base. How do i know that --pure guess and i think Bill James said 50 years in one of his books i read.
    I asked my Dad about the Fort Wayne Komets and they have been around since he was in high school. He graduated in 1958.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.


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