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Thread: Cincinnati soccer/MLS

  1. #16
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    I’ll believe it when I see it
    Except it's happening and you're refusing to see it. It doesn't dominate the U.S. marketplace, probably never will. Yet MLS is established, gets good attendance and is growing. The sport itself is popular with younger sports fans, which is the market you want for long-term success.

    More importantly, it's happening perhaps most dramatically in Cincinnati, where FCC has done a phenomenal job and the Reds are swirling the bowl. Atlanta is another spot where it's blowing the doors off of expectations. Yet I maintain all you've got to do is watch any Portland Timbers home game to recognize soccer has landed.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Except it's happening and you're refusing to see it. It doesn't dominate the U.S. marketplace, probably never will. Yet MLS is established, gets good attendance and is growing. The sport itself is popular with younger sports fans, which is the market you want for long-term success.

    More importantly, it's happening perhaps most dramatically in Cincinnati, where FCC has done a phenomenal job and the Reds are swirling the bowl. Atlanta is another spot where it's blowing the doors off of expectations. Yet I maintain all you've got to do is watch any Portland Timbers home game to recognize soccer has landed.
    What am I refusing to see? I said soccer is growing in popularity and I love that it is. It’s easier to watch and follow now than it ever was before. The New York Cosmos of the old NASL were huge at one point too. “Soccer had landed” then as well, but yeah. Didn’t last. Like I said, MLS is fine being what it is, but what it is, is a comparative 3rd rate league. Unless it improves to a first rate league, it won’t be taken seriously and will be nothing more than a fun getaway night.

  4. #18
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Meanwhile going to a reds game is not fun and feels more like going to work or the dentist for a root canal than a getaway.

    FCC is arriving in town at a perfect time.
    Lol yeah. Can’t argue with that. But they put a winner out there, and the fans will come and the games will be fun again. Like I said when we first started this, everyone loves a winner.

  5. #19
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    LOL no. It’s not. It’s where old Euro stars go to die and get one last payday. MLS is a joke to European fans. Yeah it’s been around for 23 years. Major TV contract? Homegrown stars that have become household names? Pipeline of up and coming players that can challenge Europe for supremacy in the coming years? No, no, and no. MLS is doing fine being what it is, but let’s not try to sell it as something that it definitely is not, which is a credible, worldwide competitive league.
    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...Believer/page8

    Your talking points are 10 years old. First off, European fans don't know squat about non-European leagues. Yet the quality on that continent goes way down after you get past the top five leagues. The average MLS team is absolutely as good as Boavista and Estoril, which occupy the middle of Portugal's top league (and I guarantee you can't name a single player on either of those teams). And the Portugal Primera ranks 7th in Europe.

    And how do you not notice MLS is on TV all the time? ESPN/Fox/Univision.

    MLS teams can't compete against Real Madrid or Bayern Munich. Almost no one can. If that's your point, then everybody who's not the top 0.1% ought to fold up their tents. Yet it is a completely credible non-elite league.
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  7. #20
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    Cincinnati soccer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...Believer/page8

    Your talking points are 10 years old. First off, European fans don't know squat about non-European leagues. Yet the quality on that continent goes way down after you get past the top five leagues. The average MLS team is absolutely as good as Boavista and Estoril, which occupy the middle of Portugal's top league (and I guarantee you can't name a single player on either of those teams). And the Portugal Primera ranks 7th in Europe.

    And how do you not notice MLS is on TV all the time? ESPN/Fox/Univision.

    MLS teams can't compete against Real Madrid or Bayern Munich. Almost no one can. If that's your point, then everybody who's not the top 0.1% ought to fold up their tents. Yet it is a completely credible non-elite league.
    Eh no. I donít follow the Portuguese league. Being 7th means squat. You know why? Because the top players all play in either England, Spain, Germany, Italy, or France. Case in point, Portugal has a very good international team, yet hardly any of their players actually play in the Portuguese league.

    And MLS is on tv all the time? Iíll take your word for it. If thatís true, this is a devastating piece of information...

    http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/04/1...er-tv-viewing/

  8. #21
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    What am I refusing to see? I said soccer is growing in popularity and I love that it is. It’s easier to watch and follow now than it ever was before. The New York Cosmos of the old NASL were huge at one point too. “Soccer had landed” then as well, but yeah. Didn’t last. Like I said, MLS is fine being what it is, but what it is, is a comparative 3rd rate league. Unless it improves to a first rate league, it won’t be taken seriously and will be nothing more than a fun getaway night.
    I saw the Cosmos play when I was a kid and they were fantastic. Unfortunately there were a bit like trying to build a basketball league around the Globetrotters. I'm not sure how deep you have to have your head in the sand not to recognize the difference between the old NASL and MLS, but your skull is there.

    If your complaint is MLS in not on par with the EPL ... well, it's not going to be. In the global scheme of things, it's a second-tier league (which makes it better than much of Europe, which has a lot of second-, third- and fourth-tier leagues). Yet it's a silly complaint. MLS has pushed its way into the top 10 argument in the most competitive sport in the world in just two decades (Spain, England, Germany, Italy, France, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico are the top 8 and then it's a jump ball). Seems like, if you understand the sport, you'd recognize that's impressive progress in a short time.
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  9. #22
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    Cincinnati soccer

    Please have the discussion here.

  10. #23
    Member Tracy Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I saw the Cosmos play when I was a kid and they were fantastic. Unfortunately there were a bit like trying to build a basketball league around the Globetrotters. I'm not sure how deep you have to have your head in the sand not to recognize the difference between the old NASL and MLS, but your skull is there.

    If your complaint is MLS in not on par with the EPL ... well, it's not going to be. In the global scheme of things, it's a second-tier league (which makes it better than much of Europe, which has a lot of second-, third- and fourth-tier leagues). Yet it's a silly complaint. MLS has pushed its way into the top 10 argument in the most competitive sport in the world in just two decades (Spain, England, Germany, Italy, France, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico are the top 8 and then it's a jump ball). Seems like, if you understand the sport, you'd recognize that's impressive progress in a short time.
    First of all that’s pretty awesome that you got to see the Cosmos. I remember watching them on ESPN in its infancy and that’s how I fell in love.

    Second, if you say that my “head is in the sand” ummm ok. If you say so.

    Last, I notice you didn’t reply to the link I posted about the MLS on TV. If you haven’t seen it or haven’t had time, ok, but if you just didn’t want to I understand, considering how it destroys not only your assertion that MLS attendance figures mean anything more that just about every supporter of an MLS franchise that exists is probably at the games, but your entire argument about “soccer landing.”

    More people follow soccer now in America than they have before. It’s much easier to do so now than it was back in the days where my buddies and I were pirating signals to watch games. As longtime fan, I think that’s great. But they’re following European soccer. MLS is just feeding from that. Is it a fad like it has been in the past on a number of occasions? Don’t know for sure, but history says yes. I’d leave at that if I were you.

  11. #24
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    Re: Cincinnati soccer/MLS

    If you think pro soccer in the states is a fad then you aren't paying attention.

    Furthermore a soccer team in New York 40 years ago has no bearing on one in Cincinnati today.

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  13. #25
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Jones View Post
    First of all that’s pretty awesome that you got to see the Cosmos. I remember watching them on ESPN in its infancy and that’s how I fell in love.

    Second, if you say that my “head is in the sand” ummm ok. If you say so.

    Last, I notice you didn’t reply to the link I posted about the MLS on TV. If you haven’t seen it or haven’t had time, ok, but if you just didn’t want to I understand, considering how it destroys not only your assertion that MLS attendance figures mean anything more that just about every supporter of an MLS franchise that exists is probably at the games, but your entire argument about “soccer landing.”

    More people follow soccer now in America than they have before. It’s much easier to do so now than it was back in the days where my buddies and I were pirating signals to watch games. As longtime fan, I think that’s great. But they’re following European soccer. MLS is just feeding from that. Is it a fad like it has been in the past on a number of occasions? Don’t know for sure, but history says yes. I’d leave at that if I were you.
    I just watched Pele the whole time. If other players were on the field, I couldn't tell you.

    MLS definitely has a TV issue. It's yet to make the sale to non-market fans. If you live in Cincinnati, the non-market soccer you watch is most likely going to be from across the Atlantic or from LigaMX (still the most watched soccer league in the U.S.). A regular season game between Dallas and Portland probably doesn't register. Then again Huddersfield vs. West Brom probably doesn't either and that's Premier League.

    Though I've never seen hard numbers attached to it, there's a general assertion that local broadcasts of in-market away games do all right. Makes sense, cities that have a team watch the team when it's on the road. Those numbers don't count toward the national broadcast totals you're looking at. I can testify that if the NE Revs are playing a game, the local broadcast is on one of the screens in most every bar/restaurant in Boston.

    Anyway, TV lags behind attendance for MLS. There's a fairly fierce argument over whether promotion/relegation could help fix that, but that's a separate rabbit hole.

    Yet I don't get why you're dismissive of attendance. MLS is the 7th-best attended soccer league in the world. And it very well might jump past Serie A into 6th place this season. If you're into your third decade of existence and you're drawing fans on par with Italy, you're not a fad. It draws more fans per game than the NBA or NHL. It ranks 14th of any team sports league in the entire world. MLS has got just about jack squat in common with the old NASL. If that's the "history" you're relying on here, that's about as relevant as the assertion that no one needs or will want a personal computer (which was an idea that was a contemporary of the old NASL).
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  14. #26
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I just watched Pele the whole time. If other players were on the field, I couldn't tell you.

    MLS definitely has a TV issue. It's yet to make the sale to non-market fans. If you live in Cincinnati, the non-market soccer you watch is most likely going to be from across the Atlantic or from LigaMX (still the most watched soccer league in the U.S.). A regular season game between Dallas and Portland probably doesn't register. Then again Huddersfield vs. West Brom probably doesn't either and that's Premier League.

    Though I've never seen hard numbers attached to it, there's a general assertion that local broadcasts of in-market away games do all right. Makes sense, cities that have a team watch the team when it's on the road. Those numbers don't count toward the national broadcast totals you're looking at. I can testify that if the NE Revs are playing a game, the local broadcast is on one of the screens in most every bar/restaurant in Boston.

    Anyway, TV lags behind attendance for MLS. There's a fairly fierce argument over whether promotion/relegation could help fix that, but that's a separate rabbit hole.

    Yet I don't get why you're dismissive of attendance. MLS is the 7th-best attended soccer league in the world. And it very well might jump past Serie A into 6th place this season. If you're into your third decade of existence and you're drawing fans on par with Italy, you're not a fad. It draws more fans per game than the NBA or NHL. It ranks 14th of any team sports league in the entire world. MLS has got just about jack squat in common with the old NASL. If that's the "history" you're relying on here, that's about as relevant as the assertion that no one needs or will want a personal computer (which was an idea that was a contemporary of the old NASL).
    I watch my fair share of the EPL. I thoroughly enjoy it, primarily because the product is top notch, but also because its great early in the morning when the kids are up. I don't think its a fad but also acknowledge that there are systematic advantages that he European game has over anything played here.

    I think a lot of soccer is un-American in nature. Stuff like flopping/diving, embellishing fouls, ties, no playoff, are all stuff that we tend to look down upon in our sport society in general. I think it takes time to get used to, it takes time to get used to a 1-1 game that is fantastic action but lacking in scoring. I do think that what holds the MLS down, is that soccer at its best is played like under the European method, but us fans don't quite like everything that method entails.

  15. #27
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I watch my fair share of the EPL. I thoroughly enjoy it, primarily because the product is top notch, but also because its great early in the morning when the kids are up. I don't think its a fad but also acknowledge that there are systematic advantages that he European game has over anything played here.

    I think a lot of soccer is un-American in nature. Stuff like flopping/diving, embellishing fouls, ties, no playoff, are all stuff that we tend to look down upon in our sport society in general. I think it takes time to get used to, it takes time to get used to a 1-1 game that is fantastic action but lacking in scoring. I do think that what holds the MLS down, is that soccer at its best is played like under the European method, but us fans don't quite like everything that method entails.
    You can't beat the game times for European soccer. It's like being a west coast sports fan. You can do things after the games happen. And MLS isn't bridging the quality of play gap to elite Euro leagues any time soon. I think that's the most un-American thing about MLS: that we're not at the top. Americans seem fine with diving and embellishing when the elite players do it. People don't change the channel because Leo Messi just dropped like a load of bricks in order to buy himself a fee kick a few yards outside the box. And flopping/embellishment is now part of basketball and hockey too.

    There's people who don't like soccer, but they're increasingly old. Grandpa isn't going to watch and that's fine. There's enough honest-to-goodness soccer fans in this country now that we're past trying to convert non-fans. It's a different sport, millions upon millions of Americans are cool with that.
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  16. #28
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    Re: Bob Castellini Is Still A Believer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    You can't beat the game times for European soccer. It's like being a west coast sports fan. You can do things after the games happen. And MLS isn't bridging the quality of play gap to elite Euro leagues any time soon. I think that's the most un-American thing about MLS: that we're not at the top. Americans seem fine with diving and embellishing when the elite players do it. People don't change the channel because Leo Messi just dropped like a load of bricks in order to buy himself a fee kick a few yards outside the box. And flopping/embellishment is now part of basketball and hockey too.

    There's people who don't like soccer, but they're increasingly old. Grandpa isn't going to watch and that's fine. There's enough honest-to-goodness soccer fans in this country now that we're past trying to convert non-fans. It's a different sport, millions upon millions of Americans are cool with that.
    I can't speak to hockey, but in basketball, if its not your team, fans hate flopping. They hate when someone goes down like they were shot for minimal or no contact.

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  18. #29
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: Cincinnati soccer/MLS

    Post-match review and issuing cards for flopping would take a big bite out of it.
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  19. #30
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    Re: Cincinnati soccer/MLS

    Quote Originally Posted by paintmered View Post
    Post-match review and issuing cards for flopping would take a big bite out of it.
    Maybe. Yet it's also a bit of a can of worms. Say you're running full speed and someone sticks a leg in front of you. Rather than take the contact (and potentially get hurt) you dive over it. That is a dive, but do you deserve a card for it? Do you stand to get punished because you've got quick reactions?

    I get it video review penalties for grabbing you head or leg like you need hospitalization when you didn't even get touched. That's clear. Yet I'm wary of allowing Big Brother into areas that require interpretation. We have refs for that.
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