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Thread: Hunter Greene

  1. #16
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I'm going to argue it's not minor. Players don't develop when they're completely overmatched. This is beyond humility, and it invites him to overthrow as a way of getting out of the messes in which he consistently finds himself. If you wanted to create a scenario for how to injure a young pitcher, this would be it.
    I disagree. I think when someone with the requisite physical talent realizes that he's overmatched, he's likely to figure out what it is he needs to do to stop being overmatched. Now, that doesn't mean the Reds shouldn't change things up for him so that he now has a chance to have some success after tasting adversity for what is probably the first time in his life. Clearly, this isn't working, and it's probably not going to correct on its own. So perhaps they schedule him to throw only an inning or two out of the bullpen every four or five days until he has enough success/confidence to go back into a starting role. But I don't think there's any reason yet to believe this year is somehow being wasted or that he's not still on the path to being a quality big leaguer.

    It DOES, however, provide an answer to people who were whispering that maybe he was going to be the next Doc Gooden or Jose Fernandez at 19 or 20 years old. Including, just maybe, Greene himself.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    I was sort of surprised he started the season in Dayton but it's sort of hard to know what goes on behind the scenes and perhaps they simply felt more comfortable with the developmental staff in Dayton and having close access to the Reds braintrust in Cincinnati?

  4. #18
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    I honestly don't care what his era is at this season. Most kids his age are still in their senior year of high school. All I want to see this year is a decent K-rate (he has that) and health. We can worry about his numbers at a later date.

    He's an 18 year old who barely pitched at all last year who's currently learning how to pitch. Patience, Redszone... Patience...

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  6. #19
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    He's an 18 year old who barely pitched at all last year who's currently learning how to pitch. Patience, Redszone... Patience...
    I think everyone is preaching patience. The question is whether the Reds have been patient enough based on where he started. I think so, but obviously others disagree.

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  8. #20
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    I honestly don't care what his era is at this season. Most kids his age are still in their senior year of high school. All I want to see this year is a decent K-rate (he has that) and health. We can worry about his numbers at a later date.

    He's an 18 year old who barely pitched at all last year who's currently learning how to pitch. Patience, Redszone... Patience...
    That’s kind of the thing....I don’t think anyone here is calling him a bust, we are asking why the reds felt the need to put an 18 year old at a level generally reserved for recent college grads and players 2 years out of HS. Not only are we not being impatient, we are asking why the reds weren’t patient. In the past couple of years Greene barely has any innings in competitive enviroments. He’s like a rich man’s Travieso.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

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  10. #21
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    Are there any studies that pitchers should be coddled any more that hitters should be? (not usage question but level and age question)
    There's really no reason rush unless you've got a generational great type of phenom on your hands. Look at any given season and the number of SPs under age 23 able to pitch enough innings to qualify for an ERA title and also pitch well is minimal. Exactly two guys have logged the IP in the last three seasons (German Marquez in 2017 and Taijuan Walker in 2015, and Walker didn't pitch particularly well). 23 is even pushing it, but the reality is unless Hunter Greene goes wild he's not going to be ready for a regular MLB starting pitcher gig until 2023.

    No reason to be this aggressive this early with his assignments. He's still got 2019 and 2020 if you think he can charge through the minors and get to the majors at a ridiculously young age. Yet, for the most part, it's not a race, it's a waiting game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Can you define what pulling it together would look like?
    ERA, WHIP, OPS against near league averages.
    Wanted: Big Red Mechanic

    Robert Stephenson should be cut. That's just unconscious knowledge.

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  12. #22
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    I disagree. I think when someone with the requisite physical talent realizes that he's overmatched, he's likely to figure out what it is he needs to do to stop being overmatched.
    Provide me examples of that working in baseball with pitchers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    Patience, Redszone... Patience...
    Patience would be not sticking him in over his head. The Reds are doing the opposite of patience with him.
    Wanted: Big Red Mechanic

    Robert Stephenson should be cut. That's just unconscious knowledge.

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  14. #23
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post

    ERA, WHIP, OPS against near league averages.
    Starting tomorrow, or are we factoring in the whole season numbers? Because if we're talking whole season numbers, that WHIP and ERA aren't going to recover unless he starts literally throwing no-hitters for a few months. That .700+ BABIP has killed any chance he's got of recovering from that anytime soon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Provide me examples of that working in baseball with pitchers.
    Roy Halladay. Edinson Volquez.

    Those two were the ones that immediately jumped to mind. Exceptions to the rule, of course, but those are ones that it did happen with.

  15. #24
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Provide me examples of that working in baseball with pitchers.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Patience would be not sticking him in over his head. The Reds are doing the opposite of patience with him.
    Johnny Cueto, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Jose Rijo just off the top of my head.

    You’re not trying to make the argument that extremely talented guys who struggled early in their careers never figure it out are you?

  16. #25
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Starting tomorrow, or are we factoring in the whole season numbers? Because if we're talking whole season numbers, that WHIP and ERA aren't going to recover unless he starts literally throwing no-hitters for a few months. That .700+ BABIP has killed any chance he's got of recovering from that anytime soon.
    Starting tomorrow, but I wouldn't be giving him a lot of rope with it. He'd need to improve to mediocrity in rapid fashion.
    Wanted: Big Red Mechanic

    Robert Stephenson should be cut. That's just unconscious knowledge.

  17. #26
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Reds management obviously felt he could handle the competition in Low-A. The fact that he's struggling right now does nothing to prove them wrong on that, especially considering the luck he's had.

    In Santillan's first exposure to Dayton, he pitched to a 6.82 era. He doesn't seem to be struggling because of that... Guys, just calm down and let him progress...

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  19. #27
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Replying to Doug and Griffey’s comments here:

    “Or maybe he’s just an 18 year old pitcher”

    Why was he rushed to Dayton if he wasn’t ready? Or, even worse, how did the Reds development staff not recognize he’s not ready for Dayton?

    “Who sat out his senior year”

    Again, why was he rushed to Dayton with this knowledge?

    Why does the Reds development staff have so much trouble with pitchers?
    To me poor performance does not equal "rushed".

    And as far as starting him out in Dayton, he gets to start in full-season ball. Gets a full year of the routine of starting every five days and so forth. If he is going to be pitching innings it might as well be to batters in game situations. His stuff will surely dominate rookie ball hitters so is there a benefit there? I dunno. He is striking out 19 per 9 before the most recent start. He isn't exactly being over-matched, just giving up a ton of hits. I don't think we should expect an 18 year old pitcher with limited experience to completely dominate all parts of a challenging assignment. He also seems like exactly the type of kid to take a challenging assignment head on, learn, and improve from it.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  20. #28
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    Reds management obviously felt he could handle the competition in Low-A. The fact that he's struggling right now does nothing to prove them wrong on that, especially considering the luck he's had.

    In Santillan's first exposure to Dayton, he pitched to a 6.82 era. He doesn't seem to be struggling because of that... Guys, just calm down and let him progress...
    I wouldn't be concerned at all if Hunter had a 6.80 or even 8.00 ERA, but he's practically being Charlie Brown'd off the mound right now and the walks are piling up too.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

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  22. #29
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I wouldn't be concerned at all if Hunter had a 6.80 or even 8.00 ERA, but he's practically being Charlie Brown'd off the mound right now and the walks are piling up too.
    Oh, I think there's definitely reason to be concerned. Just no reason to overreact.

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  24. #30
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I wouldn't be concerned at all if Hunter had a 6.80 or even 8.00 ERA, but he's practically being Charlie Brown'd off the mound right now and the walks are piling up too.
    The walks are the only thing I'm really looking at and wondering about. The hits don't bother me. He's being BABIP'd to death, though some of the hits against him have been rockets, many of them also haven't been. Guys can hit his fastball when it's not moving, and he's not yet found the consistency to make it move. It's there, the one that moves at 99-100. I've seen it a few different days. But it's also followed, or preceeded by one at the same velocity without much movement at all. Sliders good. Change up is better than advertised.

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