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Thread: Atlanta United

  1. #16
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Competitive balance rules are the only reason sports teams exist in the Midwest. Eliminate that, and you'll find a league that is quickly dominated by coastal cities and massive metropolitan areas with amenities that appeal to wealthy professional athletes and secondary financial resources (massive local media deals, access to large corporations for sponsorship deals, etc.) that give the ability to pay at a high level.

    As for promotion and relegation? Hard pass. I don't understand the fascination with turning MLS / American soccer into the rest of the world -- where the same 4-5 (or, in some countries 1-2) teams compete for the league title every year while everyone else sits contentedly in the middle or fights desperately just to stay up. It works over there because teams are filled with multi-generational fans of neighborhood clubs (where you are born a Stoke fan, be damned if they never really compete for anything) and there is minimal competition for sports dollars (the best ticket you can buy in Stoke-on-Trent is Stoke City, regardless of their table standing). In America? When your team has no chance to win, or when they get dropped to the minor leagues, there are plenty of other professional sports (with competitive balance and some hope of competing in the future for many teams) to follow.
    First part is demonstrably false. There's six major cities along the Atlantic coast - Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC and Miami. If you want to add Jacksonville, be my guest. Inland in coastal states you've got Tampa Bay, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. Outside of Atlanta those aren't big markets. Along the pacific you've got San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Oakland, Portland and Seattle. Feel free to toss in San Jose. Inland there's Sacramento. That's 12 cities on the coasts with two fringe entrants, many of them don't have teams in multiple leagues. Can't run a pro league without a hefty dose of the midwest (and the Rockies and the Sun Belt). I'm a Reds fan because before competitive balance rules, the Reds built themselves a dynasty. The culture of obsolescence that's sprung up since then, IMO, is unfortunate and I suspect fans would enjoy going after titles without a booster seat.

    As for soccer being dominated by big clubs at its very upper levels - yep, and it's the most popular sport on the planet. MLS has a fatal design flaw. It is nowhere near the top league on the planet. If you're outside an MLS market (or even in one), you can watch top Euro leagues. A no stakes domestic league is never going to be a big deal. The only way people are ever going to care about our top flight is if they're fully committed to their local team and know it's all connected.

    And those dominant foreign clubs breed dominant national teams. Not an accident France, Germany, Spain and Italy have won the last four World Cups. You could substitute PSG, Bayern, Barcelona and Milan for the nations. If we want the USMNT to become a true powerhouse, we're going to need some lead dog clubs like Atlanta to drive that growth. Counting on a modest, balanced-for-billionaires league to do the job is foolish.
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  3. #17
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    To be clear, you are saying cities like Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Indianapolis would have no major league sports teams if it weren't for competitive balance rules?
    Chicago would be OK. Major metropolitan area with lots of access to money and amenities.

    I was being slightly hyperbolic -- the other cities might have major league teams, but only because the big cities would need someone to play. In a completely open system with no competitive balancing (e.g. no draft, no spending restrictions, etc.), top stars would all gravitate to the larger markets while the smaller markets fed on the table scraps.
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  4. #18
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Chicago would be OK. Major metropolitan area with lots of access to money and amenities.

    I was being slightly hyperbolic -- the other cities might have major league teams, but only because the big cities would need someone to play. In a completely open system with no competitive balancing (e.g. no draft, no spending restrictions, etc.), top stars would all gravitate to the larger markets while the smaller markets fed on the table scraps.
    Ok, I was a little surprised - I think Minneapolis, for example, has like 19 Fortune 500 companies. There's a ton of money not on the coasts, and I think there's a lot of talent who don't care where they live, they just want to make money and win. They are traveling all the time anyway, along with a significant offseason.
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  5. #19
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    First part is demonstrably false. There's six major cities along the Atlantic coast - Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC and Miami. If you want to add Jacksonville, be my guest. Inland in coastal states you've got Tampa Bay, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. Outside of Atlanta those aren't big markets. Along the pacific you've got San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Oakland, Portland and Seattle. Feel free to toss in San Jose. Inland there's Sacramento. That's 12 cities on the coasts with two fringe entrants, many of them don't have teams in multiple leagues. Can't run a pro league without a hefty dose of the midwest (and the Rockies and the Sun Belt). I'm a Reds fan because before competitive balance rules, the Reds built themselves a dynasty. The culture of obsolescence that's sprung up since then, IMO, is unfortunate and I suspect fans would enjoy going after titles without a booster seat.
    I said "coastal cities and massive metropolitan areas" -- so I'd add Chicago, Houston, and DFW to that list too.

    And you're crazy if you don't think that an open league with no competitive balancing things like revenue sharing, spending restrictions, and player allocation oversight (via a draft or other methods) wouldn't be almost instantly dominated by that group of cities. You'd still have teams in the Midwest, but only because the other teams need opponents to fill out the schedules.

    As for soccer being dominated by big clubs at its very upper levels - yep, and it's the most popular sport on the planet. MLS has a fatal design flaw. It is nowhere near the top league on the planet. If you're outside an MLS market (or even in one), you can watch top Euro leagues. A no stakes domestic league is never going to be a big deal. The only way people are ever going to care about our top flight is if they're fully committed to their local team and know it's all connected.

    And those dominant foreign clubs breed dominant national teams. Not an accident France, Germany, Spain and Italy have won the last four World Cups. You could substitute PSG, Bayern, Barcelona and Milan for the nations. If we want the USMNT to become a true powerhouse, we're going to need some lead dog clubs like Atlanta to drive that growth. Counting on a modest, balanced-for-billionaires league to do the job is foolish.
    And you'll never get people connected to their local team when their local team is a perpetual punching bag for places like Atlanta, New York or Los Angeles. That works in other countries because generational fandom keeps people fans of their local 11, when all common sense says "you're wasting your time, this team will never 'win' anything." That doesn't exist in America. In fact, in America, there is a market expectation of potential competitiveness for every team in pro sports. The "any team is just a few draft picks or a new coach/GM/etc. from winning" is part of our sports DNA.

    Can you imagine the reaction of the average supporter of Sporting KC if you told them "Sorry, under this new system SKC will never be able to compete for a league title ever. Top international footballing talent doesn't want to move to Kansas City when Miami, LA or New York are on the table instead, and you couldn't meet their wage demands anyway." If SKC was the only game in town, maybe they'd continue showing up -- but with the Royals and Chiefs in town, I imagine a lot of them would simply take their business elsewhere.
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  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I said "coastal cities and massive metropolitan areas" -- so I'd add Chicago, Houston, and DFW to that list too.

    And you're crazy if you don't think that an open league with no competitive balancing things like revenue sharing, spending restrictions, and player allocation oversight (via a draft or other methods) wouldn't be almost instantly dominated by that group of cities. You'd still have teams in the Midwest, but only because the other teams need opponents to fill out the schedules.
    First off, that assumes a league that's able to attract the premier talent in the sport. MLS is not going to be that league. MLS buys washed Wayne Rooney, not prime Wayne Rooney, and he's not expensive.

    Second, name the biggest city - Cincinnati, Foxborough, Patterson, Chester, Bridgeview or Carson? We view soccer through American market-size lenses and it creates distortions. The teams that are near, but can't get themselves into major cities, they've got a low ceiling and perhaps a short shelf-life. Maybe a couple of decades into the future big local TV money will enter the picture (though hard to imagine cord-cutting doesn't snuff that out before it ever emerges). Until then it's a gate-driven sport in terms of team revenues. The boogeyman you're imagining is just a pile of socks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    And you'll never get people connected to their local team when their local team is a perpetual punching bag for places like Atlanta, New York or Los Angeles. That works in other countries because generational fandom keeps people fans of their local 11, when all common sense says "you're wasting your time, this team will never 'win' anything." That doesn't exist in America. In fact, in America, there is a market expectation of potential competitiveness for every team in pro sports. The "any team is just a few draft picks or a new coach/GM/etc. from winning" is part of our sports DNA.
    It's not part of our DNA. In fact, soccer fans seem to enjoy being free of those shackles when they start watching Euro leagues. No draft picks, no trades, no soul-crushing salary cap discussions, no problem. It's liberating, a delicious break from potatoes. And you're living what gets people connected to a local team. FCC caught fire because it's damn cool. If MLS had passed and the stadium deal collapsed, it would still be damn cool - way better than the MLS team in my neck of the woods. No matter where it played, FCC was a proper club.

    BTW, beware of some post-promotion malaise in a few years. You're going to find the chase was way better than the catch. It's a real existential lift to convince yourself that anything that happens in MLS matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Can you imagine the reaction of the average supporter of Sporting KC if you told them "Sorry, under this new system SKC will never be able to compete for a league title ever. Top international footballing talent doesn't want to move to Kansas City when Miami, LA or New York are on the table instead, and you couldn't meet their wage demands anyway." If SKC was the only game in town, maybe they'd continue showing up -- but with the Royals and Chiefs in town, I imagine a lot of them would simply take their business elsewhere.
    I'd like to think SKC fans recognize that talent development is the key to sustained success and that they've got one of the league's better academy systems. RSL and Dallas probably have the best. And do you stand on your feet and shout your head off at Royals and Chiefs games? Are the Royals and Chiefs fighting for their spot in the league every time they take the field?

    Again, people like soccer it's not the same old thing in a different wrapper. In fact, you're one of those people. FCC just scratched the surface of it and you've seen how excellent it can be. Don't be afraid to take the full trip. What you will get out of it is a club for which you are ride-or-die for the rest of your life. Marry the crazy, amazing person who takes you in directions you never expected. Don't try to change them into someone who's just like all the others.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Atlanta United

    I wonder if there would be a way for MLS to negotiate their way into the Champions and UEFA leagues. Accomplish that, and you’ve got your reason for KC and RSL to care. Maybe you can’t win the MLS league, but say 4th gets you a birth in the UEFA league. Maybe you can make some noise there.

    TV money is going to be an interesting thing going forward. If you can put together 6-10 teams that draw like Atlanta, you’ve got the makings of a big fat TV contract under the pre cord cutting rules. That kind of money could make it a destination league instead of a retirement league.

    Side note, washed up Wayne Rooney sucks. Maybe he gets some form back as he gets acclimated, but he did nothing in the game I was at.


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  8. #22
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    I wonder if there would be a way for MLS to negotiate their way into the Champions and UEFA leagues. Accomplish that, and you’ve got your reason for KC and RSL to care. Maybe you can’t win the MLS league, but say 4th gets you a birth in the UEFA league. Maybe you can make some noise there.

    TV money is going to be an interesting thing going forward. If you can put together 6-10 teams that draw like Atlanta, you’ve got the makings of a big fat TV contract under the pre cord cutting rules. That kind of money could make it a destination league instead of a retirement league.

    Side note, washed up Wayne Rooney sucks. Maybe he gets some form back as he gets acclimated, but he did nothing in the game I was at.


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  9. #23
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    My wife, son, and I traveled down to Atlanta to take in a game yesterday. All I can say is, WOW!!! Random midseason game against the worst team in the division, and that place was rockin. We had a blast. USSF should throw a truckload of cash at everyone in the front office of that franchise. From the product on the field to drumming up fan enthusiasm to providing a great fan experience at the game, they have got to be the gold standard.
    Fantastic product at an affordable price in what has to be one of the most amazing stadiums on the planet. Pretty solid formula.

    I can’t speak to suburbia, but everywhere you go in-town you see United Founding Member flags flying from porches year round and people sporting 5 Stripes gear. School starts for many of the metro area public school systems this coming week. The kids sporting Martinez and Almiron jerseys in my part of town (Decatur) will dwarf the number of kids in Freeman or Ryan jerseys.

  10. #24
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Bump.

    15 year-old daughter and I were there tonight for the MLS Cup. Un-freaking-real environment. Over 73k in attendance. Our seats were 1/3 of the way up in the top level and we stood the entire game.

    I missed Martinez putting ATL up 1-0 as I was, uh, emptying a couple of beers. Surreal to see guys at urinals high-fiving each other. The place went bonkers when United went up 2-0.

    If they didn’t show it on tv, look for the national anthem on YouTube. The 7 year-old girl who sang it threw it down like a boss. An absolute boss.

    And bravo Arthur Blank. In it to win it. I don’t know what you do to top winning a title in your 2nd year of existence, but you’ve got a monster of a fan base that’s rabid beyond words.

  11. #25
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Who could have thought that there could be such a response to soccer the heart of SEC country?

    And you weren't kidding about that young girl who sang the national anthem last night. She's got a serious set of pipes and the confidence in herself to match.
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  13. #26
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    Re: Atlanta United

    Atlanta needs MLS to evolve to reach it's true potential. It could be a super club that commands national and worldwide attention.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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