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Thread: The rotation overhaul

  1. #1
    Member Randymack's Avatar
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    The rotation overhaul

    Ever since the trades of the playoff run starters, this organization has been looking to the farm system to supply the next homegrown starting rotation to get over the proverbial hump on the rebuild.
    That unfortunately hasn't happened so here's a place to post some desired rotation ideas. I know everyone has some creative ideas, but try and keep it semi-reasonable.

    The NYY just signed C.C. Sabathia to a one year deal today, so that definitely makes Sonny Gray available. I'd prefer the salary swap for Gennett to solve their LH batter and MI situation. But they should only trade prospects if they get a 48 window to negotiate an additional couple years.

    The Seattle Mariners may be setting the reset button to a degree. Desclafani, Billy Hamilton(who's been linked as a target for Seattle), one of the 5 or 6 #3/4's youngsters S.P., and a prospect for James Paxton's last two seasons before F.A.

    So dollar wise the Reds haven't added any payroll with the additions, let Bob then spend some money, and throw Castillo and Mahle in the mix and poof a legit rotation.
    1) James Paxton
    2) Sonny Gray
    3) F.A. Harvey, Lynn, or trade for Cobb or Bundy
    4) Castillo
    5) Mahle

    This just puts a proper placement of talent for a competitive big league rotation.
    Might even bring fans back to the ballpark.

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  3. #2
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Out of the box;

    Scott Schebler, Anthony Desclafani and Homer Bailey for Marcus Stroman, Troy Tulowitzki, Dalton Pompey and TJ Zeuch
    Billy Hamilton, Keury Mella and Robert Stephenson for Alex Cobb
    Sign Lance Lynn - 2 years at $12 Million each with an option for year 3 at 14 Million with a $1 Million buy-out.
    Sign Cameron Maybin for CF.

    Stroman
    Cobb
    Lynn
    Castillo
    Mahle/Reed

    IF and Bullpen stays the same, Winker, Maybin and Senzel LF, CF, RF. Tulo as a supersub if he's healthy on the bench with Ervin, Casali, Blandino and whoever. Maybe a 13th pitcher.
    Last edited by mth123; 11-07-2018 at 08:20 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    Overton Window Breaker WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    I posted this in the other thread but it belongs here too:

    I would make runs at trading for the following pitchers (listed in what I believe is most to least gettable):

    RH Sonny Gray
    LH Matt Boyd
    LH James Paxton
    RH Noah Syndergaard
    LH Blake Snell

    I would also attempt to sign as a major league free agent:

    LH Dallas Keuchel
    LH Patrick Corbin
    RH Garrett Richards
    RH Nate Eovaldi
    RH Joe Kelly
    LH Hyun-Jin Ryu

    And I'd push hard to try to sign foreign free agent:

    LH Yusei Kikuchi

    A rotation of:

    Gray
    Keuchel
    Castillo
    Kikuchi
    Reed/Romano/Stephenson/Desclafani/Lorenzen/Garrett/etc

    One other pitcher I really hope the Reds make a run at is Zack Britton. Throws tons of ground balls when he's not missing bats. Would be a fabulous add to the back end of the bullpen.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  6. #4
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    I'd say Snell is untouchable now. Perhaps a guy like Jose Berrios?
    Arise and walk, come through. A world beyond that door is calling out for you. Arise and walk, come through. It's calling out for you.

  7. #5
    Member Randymack's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Here's a related question.
    I'm a fan of Amir Garrett, but will he ever pan out as a starter or is he a closer/setup guy?

    I do like the sneaky Matthew Boyd...
    Detroit AND Seattle need the prospects.

    "Of them, Paxton seems the likeliest to move, if only because the others are all controlled for at least four move seasons while he has just two left to go."
    Talking about a mini rebuild in Seattle on
    Mlb trade rumors 11/7/2018

  8. #6
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Trying to contend is tricky because the Reds division is so solid with the other 4 teams in the division finishing over .500 I think it would be foolish to empty the farm and coffers to make a major push. A smarter approach would be to add pieces that make the club competitive in a 2 year stage while protecting the farm system and being fiscally sound enough to make other moves in the next couple of years.

    My crazy thoughts are address centerfield and add some proven starting pitching.

    I actually think the first move the Reds should make is attempt to acquire Whit Merrifield and put him in CF. He showed to be a good center fielder in the 30ish games he played last season and he could immediately fit in the top of the lineup and is controllable for 4 years.

    Reds trade Jonathan India, Shed Long and Scott Moss to KC for Whit Merrifield.


    This move wouldn’t on the surface help the Reds starting pitching woes but it actually would. The Reds would get a huge upgrade in production next season while saving around 5.3 M bucks. Secondary to that by placing Senzel in LF that would open up the possibility of trading Winker as well.

    Move #2

    I really like Gennett but I don’t see an easy way to extend him financially and compete for top pitching. I think a deal of

    Cincinnati trades Gennett + Winker + Peralta to Cleveland for Bieber + Kipnis + Oviedo could make sense for both teams.

    For the Reds, they would receive a 23 year old with 6 years of control that pitched 191 total innings last season and 114 of them at the major league level. His ERA was 4.55 but his FIP was 3.23. Oviedo is a 19 year old pitcher with a lot of upside.

    Cleveland would receive an upgrade at 2b while saving 4M or so and a starting OF with 5 years of control and Peralta is a LH reliever on the cheap who has 4 years of control left.

    Reds trade Billy Hamilton and Aquino or the equivalent prospect to SF for Hunter Strickland

    Cincinnati Reds trade Raisel Iglesias to Colorado for Jon Gray

    Both have 3 years of control left. Rockies need bullpen help and the Reds need a starting pitcher with upside.

    If the Reds are parting ways with Robert Stephenson then I think I would try to trade him to SD for OF Travis Jankowski.

    Other possible trade targets:

    Seth Lugo (NYM)
    He is kind of a gamble given his injury plagued 2017. He has starter stuff and could be a MOR piece that is controllable for 4 more seasons. He threw 101 innings last season with a 46.5% ground ball rate to go with a 9.1/2.5 K/BB rate. 2.66 ERA and 3.17 FIP

    Jose Urena (Miami)
    He has 3 years of control left and has worn out his welcome in Miami. His warts should bring the price down a bit. His 49.6% ground ball rate would play nicely also. This 27 year old has thrown 170 innings the least 2 seasons and last season had an ERA of 3.98 with FIP of 4.17.





    After these trades the Reds would have about 102 M committed for next season
    Sign Garrett Richards for 2 years/10M + team option 12M/2M
    Sign David Phelps 2 years/4M
    Sign 1 of Harvey, Lynn or Cahill for 2 yrs

    Payroll ends up between 117M and 120M

    A lineup of
    Merrifield CF
    Senzel LF
    Votto 1b
    Suarez 3b
    Schebler RF
    Kipnis 2b
    Peraza SS
    Barnhart C

    Jankowski, Blandino, Ervin, Casali

    Rotation:
    Castillo
    Desclafani
    Bieber
    Jon Gray
    Harvey/Lynn/Cahill


    Bullpen
    Garrett
    Reed
    Hernandez
    Hughes
    Wisler
    Lorenzen
    Strickland
    Mella

    AAA Rotation
    Mahle
    Sims
    Romano
    Gutierrez
    Lopez

    Then next off-season with Kipnis and Bailey off the books (roughly 32M) there are a number of possible FA’s.
    Sale
    Cole
    Verlander
    Hamels
    Porcello
    Bumgardner
    Kyle Gibson
    Sonny Gray
    Wheeler
    Alex Wood
    Chacin
    Smyly

  9. #7
    Overton Window Breaker WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Randymack View Post
    Here's a related question.
    I'm a fan of Amir Garrett, but will he ever pan out as a starter or is he a closer/setup guy?

    I do like the sneaky Matthew Boyd...
    Detroit AND Seattle need the prospects.

    "Of them, Paxton seems the likeliest to move, if only because the others are all controlled for at least four move seasons while he has just two left to go."
    Talking about a mini rebuild in Seattle on
    Mlb trade rumors 11/7/2018
    I think Garrett is cemented into a bullpen role. We'll see, but I don't see a path back to the rotation for him.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #8
    Member corkedbat's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    I think Garrett is cemented into a bullpen role. We'll see, but I don't see a path back to the rotation for him.
    Nothing to see here, move along.

    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cincinnati-reds
    Last edited by corkedbat; 11-08-2018 at 10:11 AM.

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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by SErebel11 View Post
    Trying to contend is tricky because the Reds division is so solid with the other 4 teams in the division finishing over .500 I think it would be foolish to empty the farm and coffers to make a major push. A smarter approach would be to add pieces that make the club competitive in a 2 year stage while protecting the farm system and being fiscally sound enough to make other moves in the next couple of years.

    My crazy thoughts are address centerfield and add some proven starting pitching.

    I actually think the first move the Reds should make is attempt to acquire Whit Merrifield and put him in CF. He showed to be a good center fielder in the 30ish games he played last season and he could immediately fit in the top of the lineup and is controllable for 4 years.

    Reds trade Jonathan India, Shed Long and Scott Moss to KC for Whit Merrifield.


    This move wouldn’t on the surface help the Reds starting pitching woes but it actually would. The Reds would get a huge upgrade in production next season while saving around 5.3 M bucks. Secondary to that by placing Senzel in LF that would open up the possibility of trading Winker as well.

    Move #2

    I really like Gennett but I don’t see an easy way to extend him financially and compete for top pitching. I think a deal of

    Cincinnati trades Gennett + Winker + Peralta to Cleveland for Bieber + Kipnis + Oviedo could make sense for both teams.

    For the Reds, they would receive a 23 year old with 6 years of control that pitched 191 total innings last season and 114 of them at the major league level. His ERA was 4.55 but his FIP was 3.23. Oviedo is a 19 year old pitcher with a lot of upside.

    Cleveland would receive an upgrade at 2b while saving 4M or so and a starting OF with 5 years of control and Peralta is a LH reliever on the cheap who has 4 years of control left.

    Reds trade Billy Hamilton and Aquino or the equivalent prospect to SF for Hunter Strickland

    Cincinnati Reds trade Raisel Iglesias to Colorado for Jon Gray

    Both have 3 years of control left. Rockies need bullpen help and the Reds need a starting pitcher with upside.

    If the Reds are parting ways with Robert Stephenson then I think I would try to trade him to SD for OF Travis Jankowski.

    Other possible trade targets:

    Seth Lugo (NYM)
    He is kind of a gamble given his injury plagued 2017. He has starter stuff and could be a MOR piece that is controllable for 4 more seasons. He threw 101 innings last season with a 46.5% ground ball rate to go with a 9.1/2.5 K/BB rate. 2.66 ERA and 3.17 FIP

    Jose Urena (Miami)
    He has 3 years of control left and has worn out his welcome in Miami. His warts should bring the price down a bit. His 49.6% ground ball rate would play nicely also. This 27 year old has thrown 170 innings the least 2 seasons and last season had an ERA of 3.98 with FIP of 4.17.





    After these trades the Reds would have about 102 M committed for next season
    Sign Garrett Richards for 2 years/10M + team option 12M/2M
    Sign David Phelps 2 years/4M
    Sign 1 of Harvey, Lynn or Cahill for 2 yrs

    Payroll ends up between 117M and 120M

    A lineup of
    Merrifield CF
    Senzel LF
    Votto 1b
    Suarez 3b
    Schebler RF
    Kipnis 2b
    Peraza SS
    Barnhart C

    Jankowski, Blandino, Ervin, Casali

    Rotation:
    Castillo
    Desclafani
    Bieber
    Jon Gray
    Harvey/Lynn/Cahill


    Bullpen
    Garrett
    Reed
    Hernandez
    Hughes
    Wisler
    Lorenzen
    Strickland
    Mella

    AAA Rotation
    Mahle
    Sims
    Romano
    Gutierrez
    Lopez

    Then next off-season with Kipnis and Bailey off the books (roughly 32M) there are a number of possible FA’s.
    Sale
    Cole
    Verlander
    Hamels
    Porcello
    Bumgardner
    Kyle Gibson
    Sonny Gray
    Wheeler
    Alex Wood
    Chacin
    Smyly
    A big no on the trade with the Indians. Peralta is not any good and Gennett is only has one year left. Cleveland, like Cincinnati, is a small market team. We need cost controlled players like Bieber. Getting rid of Kipnis's contract is not worth losing Bieber.

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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribe Guy View Post
    A big no on the trade with the Indians. Peralta is not any good and Gennett is only has one year left. Cleveland, like Cincinnati, is a small market team. We need cost controlled players like Bieber. Getting rid of Kipnis's contract is not worth losing Bieber.
    Winker is a cost controlled OF last I checked and Cleveland has a 2 year window left to do something big in the playoffs. Factoring in the urgency and the ability to upgrade 3 areas even for one of the seasons makes a lot of sense. Bieber isn't starting a playoff game this season in my opinion. Peralta struggled last season in spurts but the stuff is there. Bieber isn't worth much more than that trade in my opinion.

  14. #11
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by SErebel11 View Post
    Winker is a cost controlled OF last I checked and Cleveland has a 2 year window left to do something big in the playoffs. Factoring in the urgency and the ability to upgrade 3 areas even for one of the seasons makes a lot of sense. Bieber isn't starting a playoff game this season in my opinion. Peralta struggled last season in spurts but the stuff is there. Bieber isn't worth much more than that trade in my opinion.
    I don't see Peralta as a upgrade. Bieber showed great promise during his first MLB stint. I don't see Cleveland trading Clevinger or Bieber as they are controllable. We can get more controllable help for Kluber. The Indians leadership, I believe, does a great job balancing today with the future.

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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribe Guy View Post
    I don't see Peralta as a upgrade. Bieber showed great promise during his first MLB stint. I don't see Cleveland trading Clevinger or Bieber as they are controllable. We can get more controllable help for Kluber. The Indians leadership, I believe, does a great job balancing today with the future.
    That may be the direction that they go but that trade is fair for both teams value wise. I respect your thoughts though. I find it difficult to believe that in basically the only uncontested division in baseball that they wouldn't position themselves for the best chance at winning a World Series which should include Kluber and company. They also got the cash infusion from the deal last year and are also hosting the all star game this summer. There seems to be some money there that maybe ownership just doesn't want to spend.

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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by SErebel11 View Post
    That may be the direction that they go but that trade is fair for both teams value wise. I respect your thoughts though. I find it difficult to believe that in basically the only uncontested division in baseball that they wouldn't position themselves for the best chance at winning a World Series which should include Kluber and company. They also got the cash infusion from the deal last year and are also hosting the all star game this summer. There seems to be some money there that maybe ownership just doesn't want to spend.

    Cleveland's payroll was higher the past 2 years than it has ever been. As I said before, they try to balance the now and the future. I like Winker, but have no interest in Peralta. If Cleveland and Cincinnati were to do some sort of trade I could easily see Winker involved.

  17. #14
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    I don't know what to think about Cleveland. I understand dangling Kluber and Carrasco, but they at most will only trade one of those guys IMO. I'm guessing they are gauging the market and may try to bait and switch somebody by trying to downsize a deal for Danny Salazar instead. They'd still save some cash. I don't think the Reds have enough depth to sell too much, so scaling a deal back and targeting Salazar may make sense.

    I'd probably offer something like Iglesias, Winker, India and maybe Gutierrez or Moss for Kluber, Iglesias and Schebler for Carrasco and probably just Schebler for Salazar. Indians can probably do a lot better for Kluber. The Carrasco deal makes sense for them and directly addresses their needs when they try to win. Schebler for Salazar saves money for Cleveland and addresses a team need and opens a spot for a high end kid in the rotation (Bieber/McKenzie).

    I'd upgrade from Schebler to Winker in the Carrasco deal if the Indians would throw in Greg Allen and Aaron Civale. Iglesias and Winker for Carrasco, Allen and Civale. That might work. Allen would allow the team to deal off Hamilton and Civale is another quality young arm for the mix at the bottom of the rotation. From the Indians point of view, Carrasco for Iglesias would reallocate that cash from the rotation, where Cleveland has depth, to the bullpen where they have a need. Winker would add a quality bat for the minimum.

    The Reds should then turn around and deal Hamilton, Disco and Robert Stephenson to the Giants for Will Smith. Throw in a decent prospect if you need to, Keury Mella maybe. Make David Hernandez the closer with Smith and Garrett from the left side and Hughes, Lorenzen and Wisler from the right side.

    With that bullpen, a revamped outfield of Schebler, Allen and Senzel, the IF status quo and Carrasco in the rotation, the Reds are just a couple of obtainable FA starters from at least competing. Adding Carrasco and Smith while subtracting Iglesias, Disco and Hamilton doesn't increase the payroll much so they should still be able to sign a couple of guys. Sign Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly (unless they can get better by upgrading on to Eovaldi, but I'm guessing they probably can't) and go try to win something while we see if Castillo can take the next step and a kid or two can emerge from the Mahle, Romano, Sims, Reed and Civale mix. Late in the year, more kids should be ready to help. Maybe Siri, Friedl and Long on the position side and Guttierrez , Santillan and Herget on the mound.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    Re: The rotation overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    I posted this in the other thread but it belongs here too:

    I would make runs at trading for the following pitchers (listed in what I believe is most to least gettable):

    RH Sonny Gray
    LH Matt Boyd
    LH James Paxton
    RH Noah Syndergaard
    LH Blake Snell

    I would also attempt to sign as a major league free agent:

    LH Dallas Keuchel
    LH Patrick Corbin
    RH Garrett Richards
    RH Nate Eovaldi
    RH Joe Kelly
    LH Hyun-Jin Ryu

    And I'd push hard to try to sign foreign free agent:

    LH Yusei Kikuchi

    A rotation of:

    Gray
    Keuchel
    Castillo
    Kikuchi
    Reed/Romano/Stephenson/Desclafani/Lorenzen/Garrett/etc

    One other pitcher I really hope the Reds make a run at is Zack Britton. Throws tons of ground balls when he's not missing bats. Would be a fabulous add to the back end of the bullpen.
    Britton and Kikuchi would be two good targets.

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