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Thread: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

  1. #31
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    I agree it says more about them not wanting to lose Freddie and also that McCarthy is a bit of a control freak which Rodgers bristled at...
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Did you see Green Bay's offense last year under McCarthy with arguably the best QB in the game? Compare that to CLE's offense under Kitchens with a rookie QB. Kitchens also gets along with Mayfield which is extremely important.
    It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile
    I’d argue that they should have just kept the course.

    Like I said it at the start, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Browns screwed this up.
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    I agree it says more about them not wanting to lose Freddie and also that McCarthy is a bit of a control freak which Rodgers bristled at...
    Nobody wants McCarthy.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    We are back! Assembly Hall's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It's about more than just one yr. Kitchens has never been head of anything. He was an interim O coordinator for a couple months and that's it. McCarthy has a much more impressive resume. There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB. In fact I'd argue that it's best not to be best buds with the QB. We'll see who he surrounds himself with but I can't remember the last hire from w/i that worked out in the NFL. It's been awhile
    I guess it depends on what you mean by awhile. And the circumstances as well. Let me see. Parcells left NE for the Jets and Bill Belichick took over the Pats. Dungy retired from the Colts, and left Caldwell who got them to a SB. Heck, Marchibroda retired from the Colts and left Lindy Infante. Now all that being said, I don't know about a coach getting fired and someone on the staff taking over and leading them to success for years to come.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Did you see Green Bay's offense last year under McCarthy with arguably the best QB in the game? Compare that to CLE's offense under Kitchens with a rookie QB. Kitchens also gets along with Mayfield which is extremely important.
    That's not all though. Some seem to be under the impression that Kitchens, since he's gotten so much attention after what he accomplished with the Brown's offense this year, is somehow "new to the scene", came out of nowhere. Take a look at this guy's resume, who he mentored under, as he rose through the college and pro ranks at various offensive coaching positions. So he not only has a lot of coaching experience, but he made an impact, got results (especially with QBs). He just doesn't have any head coaching experience.

    Well, they all have to start somewhere. Even the great ones (LOL). And they got those opportunities by doing something to get them recognized/considered as possible head coaching candidates. So I'm still trying to figure out why the others somehow deserved their shots, but not Kitchens? He certainly has the resume IMO to be given that opportunity.

    I've looked around at many of the head coaching "candidates" who are currently available or under consideration by teams ... and I'm really not that impressed. None certainly overwhelmed me. Some I'm glad they steered clear of.

    Ready for some new blood. Give the guy a shot. Now go out and get you a sound defensive coordinator to develop and work with our young defense.

    Over on the Bengal's thread, their fans don't want nothing to do with "retread" McCarthy? Why?
    Last edited by GAC; 01-10-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There's a lot more to this job than getting along with the QB.
    That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

    What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?
    Last edited by GAC; 01-10-2019 at 08:14 AM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

    What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?
    Not surprised he didn't hire McCarthy. I'm guessing the last thing Dorsey wanted was a head coach that was too full of himself. I am surprised by the Kitchens hire. Head coach needs to be the bad guy and Kitchens has played the good guy for a long time. We'll see how it goes. I still trust Dorsey until he gives me a reason not to.

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    I guess it depends on what you mean by awhile. And the circumstances as well. Let me see. Parcells left NE for the Jets and Bill Belichick took over the Pats. Dungy retired from the Colts, and left Caldwell who got them to a SB. Heck, Marchibroda retired from the Colts and left Lindy Infante. Now all that being said, I don't know about a coach getting fired and someone on the staff taking over and leading them to success for years to come.
    Parcells and Belichick were not hires from w/i. They were with other teams previously in the examples you gave. It rarely works in the NFL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    That's not the primary reason/motive as to why Dorsey hired him (LOL). And it's wasn't about "getting along" with your QB. It was about "working with, listening to" not only your QB, but the other offensive players, valuing their input, listening to them when needed, changing things up when required. Not just Mayfield, but all the players on offense have heaped praise on Kitchens and his approach to coaching this offense. He got them working together as a solid unit. And that was shown on the field.

    What did he do, with the same players Jackson/Haley had mind you, that effected such a turnaround performance in this offense?
    This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Parcells and Belichick were not hires from w/i. They were with other teams previously in the examples you gave. It rarely works in the NFL.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago
    But again, Hue was not vetted/hired by Dorsey, Kitchens was. It's not a hire I expected or particularly embrace at the moment, but Dorsey has a history of success, is closer to the situation and knows more about building a football team than any of us. I'll continue to trust Dorsey until he gives me reason not to.

  12. #41
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    This is a riskier hire than Hue was a few yrs ago
    Don't see it. This head coach has a lot more to work with talent-wise to begin his job then the previous one. A lot firmer foundation. And we also got to see what he could do in the last half (8 games) of the season calling the offense. Pretty impressive turn-around.

    But I'm not giving Kitchens all the credit for that offensive turn-around either. It began, was orchestrated, by Dorsey. Not only with the firings, but he also got rid of the RB Hyde (who was having a good year) and WR Gordon (whom some thought was going to be our star receiver).

    Do you really want to know why I think Dorsey selected Kitchens? It's not just his coaching experience at both levels (12 years in the NFL), or what we witnessed with the offense this year when he took over as offense coordinator ... and on a side note - when he was given that coordinator job in Cleveland, many laughed, thought it was a bad choice, because he'd never been a coordinator at any level .... it's because he's not an outwardly, nor confrontational, personality, he does seek notoriety, or attention. Not like a Haley and other coaches we could name who have reputations. Remember, Dorsey lost his GM job because of a power struggle with the head coach (Reid). IMO, that's why McCarthy isn't here. Dorsey is not going to get that from Kitchens.

    Dorsey has his plan, a scheme, that he wants this offense built around. He went out and got the players to fit that, and Kitchens has shown he can implement it. And that involves taking orders too, because Dorsey likes his control. And if it involved an experienced, seasoned head coach that might cause some problems.

    Maybe Dorsey sees this as an opportunity to mentor Kitchens?
    Last edited by GAC; 01-10-2019 at 12:59 PM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Don't see it. This head coach has a lot more to work with talent-wise to begin his job then the previous one. A lot firmer foundation. And we also got to see what he could do in the last half (8 games) of the season calling the offense. Pretty impressive turn-around.

    But I'm not giving Kitchens all the credit for that offensive turn-around either. It began, was orchestrated, by Dorsey. Not only with the firings, but he also got rid of the RB Hyde (who was having a good year) and WR Gordon (whom some thought was going to be our star receiver).

    Do you really want to know why I think Dorsey selected Kitchens? It's not just his coaching experience at both levels (12 years in the NFL), or what we witnessed with the offense this year when he took over as offense coordinator ... and on a side note - when he was given that coordinator job in Cleveland, many laughed, thought it was a bad choice, because he'd never been a coordinator at any level .... it's because he's not an outwardly, nor confrontational, personality, he does seek notoriety, or attention. Not like a Haley and other coaches we could name who have reputations. Remember, Dorsey lost his GM job because of a power struggle with the head coach (Reid). IMO, that's why McCarthy isn't here. Dorsey is not going to get that from Kitchens.

    Dorsey has his plan, a scheme, that he wants this offense built around. He went out and got the players to fit that, and Kitchens has shown he can implement it. And that involves taking orders too, because Dorsey likes his control. And if it involved an experienced, seasoned head coach that might cause some problems.

    Maybe Dorsey sees this as an opportunity to mentor Kitchens?
    The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens. This guy is a wild card. If the GM wants to mentor him, so be it, but that's rarely a thing in the NFL.

  14. #43
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens.
    So what? Experience is obviously a ingredient when searching for a head coach. But I don't think it's elevated to the position you seem to assign it. It's certainly doesn't over-ride the other considerations a GM looks at (and for) when they're searching for a head coach. In fact, depending on what that GM is looking for in a head coach, I'd bet experience is farther down on the list. And not all experience is an asset. So what if you have 10 years experience coaching in the NFL, was even a head coach? What have you got to show from that experience? If the overall assessment is so-so or bad, then all you can brag on, as far as experience is concerned, is you've been around longer (LOL).

    There's always going to be a level of risk or gamble involved. And I certainly understand those "raised eyebrows" and apprehensions concerning Kitchens. But he's got 13 years of experience with various NFL teams in various offensive coaching positions. In his 20 year coaching career he's had the opportunity to learn under some great coaches (Saban, Parcells, Arians, etc). His tenure in Arizona under head coach/OC Whisenhunt was one of success (growth) in which he also made it to a Super Bowl. What he did with Mayfield/offense this year was not some one-trick pony. As QB coach he was very instrumental in resurrecting Palmer's career.

    At every level he's been promoted to he's made the most of it when he could and got results. Yeah, it's a big step (and quite fast), no denying. But other then Arians and McCarthy, I look at all those other "candidates" and I'm not overly impressed. Yeah, some may beat Kitchens in the head coaching experience department, but what did they do when they had their shot? Why aren't they still a head coach?

    And Kitchens does have one advantage over the others above .... he's been on the inside for the last year working under Dorsey. He knows, and has become comfortable within, that system, the players, etc. He's shown he can run this offense. And it's not a disadvantage that a head coach has a solid/close, even cozy, relationship with his QB either. ... Landry/Staubach, Shula/Marino, Noll/Bradshaw, Belichick/Brady, the list goes on. What other kind should you have (LOL)?

    The guy has been on the sidelines, and in the clubhouse, for 13 years watching/learning from head coaches, and what their job involves. I'd say a majority of your coaches that have been in the NFL for awhile are quite familiar with what all the job involves. The question as to whether they have the mettle, can handle it or not, do what is needed for success, is another story. He'll be in "school" from now until next season starts. And I'm sure he'll make his share of "mistakes". I think he'll do fine handling the offense/play calling. We'll see when it comes to the other game time decisions.

    Just get him a sound defensive coordinator to work with these young guys ... and Dorsey still needs to get some pieces in various areas of weakness.

    For 20 years we Brown fans have watched this organization be an embarrassment to the NFL. And did so under the auspices of management and coaches who had vast NFL experience, name recognition, and solid reputations. LOL

    Yeah ... give the guy a shot! He does have a pretty sound front office behind him that knows what it's doing (so far)

    [and I can't believe I said that about a Brown's front office either] LOL
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    The talent he has to work with is definitely better but that says nothing about the head coach. Hue had a lot more experience up and down the NFL ladder than Kitchens. This guy is a wild card. If the GM wants to mentor him, so be it, but that's rarely a thing in the NFL.
    Interesting. It appears that the other team in Ohio are poised to hire a guy with even less experience (and success) at 'being the head of anything' than Kitchens.

  17. #45
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    Re: 2019 Cleveland Browns...We're back !!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    So what? Experience is obviously a ingredient when searching for a head coach. But I don't think it's elevated to the position you seem to assign it. It's certainly doesn't over-ride the other considerations a GM looks at (and for) when they're searching for a head coach. In fact, depending on what that GM is looking for in a head coach, I'd bet experience is farther down on the list. And not all experience is an asset. So what if you have 10 years experience coaching in the NFL, was even a head coach? What have you got to show from that experience? If the overall assessment is so-so or bad, then all you can brag on, as far as experience is concerned, is you've been around longer (LOL).

    There's always going to be a level of risk or gamble involved. And I certainly understand those "raised eyebrows" and apprehensions concerning Kitchens. But he's got 13 years of experience with various NFL teams in various offensive coaching positions. In his 20 year coaching career he's had the opportunity to learn under some great coaches (Saban, Parcells, Arians, etc). His tenure in Arizona under head coach/OC Whisenhunt was one of success (growth) in which he also made it to a Super Bowl. What he did with Mayfield/offense this year was not some one-trick pony. As QB coach he was very instrumental in resurrecting Palmer's career.

    At every level he's been promoted to he's made the most of it when he could and got results. Yeah, it's a big step (and quite fast), no denying. But other then Arians and McCarthy, I look at all those other "candidates" and I'm not overly impressed. Yeah, some may beat Kitchens in the head coaching experience department, but what did they do when they had their shot? Why aren't they still a head coach?

    And Kitchens does have one advantage over the others above .... he's been on the inside for the last year working under Dorsey. He knows, and has become comfortable within, that system, the players, etc. He's shown he can run this offense. And it's not a disadvantage that a head coach has a solid/close, even cozy, relationship with his QB either. ... Landry/Staubach, Shula/Marino, Noll/Bradshaw, Belichick/Brady, the list goes on. What other kind should you have (LOL)?

    The guy has been on the sidelines, and in the clubhouse, for 13 years watching/learning from head coaches, and what their job involves. I'd say a majority of your coaches that have been in the NFL for awhile are quite familiar with what all the job involves. The question as to whether they have the mettle, can handle it or not, do what is needed for success, is another story. He'll be in "school" from now until next season starts. And I'm sure he'll make his share of "mistakes". I think he'll do fine handling the offense/play calling. We'll see when it comes to the other game time decisions.

    Just get him a sound defensive coordinator to work with these young guys ... and Dorsey still needs to get some pieces in various areas of weakness.

    For 20 years we Brown fans have watched this organization be an embarrassment to the NFL. And did so under the auspices of management and coaches who had vast NFL experience, name recognition, and solid reputations. LOL

    Yeah ... give the guy a shot! He does have a pretty sound front office behind him that knows what it's doing (so far)

    [and I can't believe I said that about a Brown's front office either] LOL
    So what? You of all people should know the value of experience. I present to you exhibit A: Bill Belichick. Don't tell me he wasn't a better coach after leaving Cleveland than he was as Browns coach. He learned a lot from that experience. I'll bet that Adam Gase will be a better coach in NY than he was in Miami. Experience is important. Not necessarily a deal breaker but it's very important and my point is merely this: the less of it you have , the more risky the pick.

    "Give the guy a shot". Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...it was Deshone Kizer, Johnny Manziel, Hue Jackson...

    Once again, hiring from within rarely works well in the NFL. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    Interesting. It appears that the other team in Ohio are poised to hire a guy with even less experience (and success) at 'being the head of anything' than Kitchens.
    The other team in Ohio is not known for its expertise in running a franchise. What's your point here? You have to strive to be the Steelers, not the Bengals.
    Last edited by Sea Ray; 01-11-2019 at 10:09 AM.


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