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Thread: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

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    Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Finnegan, Wisler, Reed, Ramono, Peralta, Stephenson, Garrett, DeSciflinia, Mahle to just name nine.

    I've never read how pitchers (major league fringe which the Reds sort through many) are assessed as to having passed the test.

    If one believes in the analysis of data is adequate to demonstrate a pitcher can be a better major league pitcher

    If mechanics can be corrected

    If the issues facing certain pitchers are mental - can a pitching coach do what a psycharist can't do for several on the list

    If the egos of pitchers prevent them from listening and taking advice - are there understood consquences

    Each of my inadquate categories have hundreds of cliches and overworked explanations

    My question to a group of knowledgeable Reds baseball fans - Which Reds pitchers will markably improve as major league pitchers based on having 2 new pitching coaches?

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    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Beyond the obvious of hoping that they help unleash Castillo and turn him into an ace and things along those lines, I think Wisler is a guy with a lot of positive attributes. I think he could become a very reliable middle relief arm with a few tweaks.

    I'm just about ready to cut bait on him but if they could do anything to stop Wandy Peralta from being a trainwreck, that would be really nice.
    I dont care, Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. Hes in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.

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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Why do people think Johnson is going to make that much of a difference. Bryan Price was just as well regarded.

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    mth123 (01-13-2019)

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    Middle Class Rut TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneinthBrame View Post
    Why do people think Johnson is going to make that much of a difference. Bryan Price was just as well regarded.
    I've given this some thought.

    Price was highly regarded as a pitching coach. But perhaps it comes down to communicating with a different era of pitcher. And while Price was a pitching coach only 5 years ago, a lot has changed in terms of how teams use analytics and sports science.

    But even that aside, Price was the pitching coach during the very best years of Homer, Cueto, Latos, and Leake with a pretty lights out bullpen.

    But Price handed over the reins when he became manager. If Johnson can be AS effective as Price when he was the Reds pitching coach, I'll be ecstatic.
    "There was like a softness to it, a glow to it. I felt... I felt warm."

    -- Joseph Daniel Votto 7/10/2017

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    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneinthBrame View Post
    Why do people think Johnson is going to make that much of a difference. Bryan Price was just as well regarded.
    guess who was the pitching coach last time we had a good pitching staff
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Ghosts, you gotta lay off the weaponized hallucinogens, my man.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    As analytics has really taken hold across the industry, hitters are much, much better prepared to attack specific pitchers and pitches in a way that maximizes their performance. While I know the Reds have had an analytic function for some years, I'm not sure how much of that has been well-integrated across the entire organization. I suspect that under Jocketty, it was almost exclusively a research function for the front office supporting player acquisition. When Williams really took the reigns in the 2016/17 offseason, he made a point of discussing how the analytics function needed to be expanded not just in number but in terms of integration with the full organization.

    As I've said elsewhere, I suspect that the Reds extreme HR issues of recent years are less about the talents (or lack thereof) of individual pitchers than about pitch selection, location, and sequencing. Over the last ~5 years or so, hitters have increasingly used analytics to understand how their swings and approaches can make them more productive, especially in a world full of sinkers and sliders. Superficially that showed up as a "launch angle" revolution as more hitters started trying to hit for power and using loft. Some organizations realized that pitchers could take advantage of those uppercut swings by using pitches with more extreme vertical movement. Meanwhile, the Reds still seemed intent on having pitchers induce weak contact with pitches that move laterally as much as vertically. Try to do that with under-developed pitchers and you've got a recipe for HRs.

    In any event, the particulars are less important than the overall dynamic. The battle between hitters and pitchers has sped up rapidly in the last decade, fueled by analytics. When you listen to Williams talk this winter, he's really emphasizing the performance analytics side of things -- and that's really Cotham's role: Helping pitchers understand what their repertoire is, how it works with their body mechanically, and how they can best use their physical tools better to get batters out. Johnson will manage the staff and certainly do a lot of coaching. But Cotham is likely going to be the guy who deeply connects with a guy and brings him along to make better use of his ability. He'll serve as the bridge from understanding the performance analytics to translating it in ways guys can understand, accept, and integrate in to their development.

    I'm optimistic that we're going to see the HR numbers cut down significantly this year. For me, that will be the leading the indicator.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-12-2019 at 01:13 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Barnhart calls the game doesn't he? So in reality isn't Cotham going to help Barnhart call a better game and by extension help the pitchers? With all the discussion of pitch framing, I wonder more about the catcher's ability to call a good game, remember the game plan and strategy on each hitter, etc. Wonder how Realmuto is regarded for calling pitches?

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    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    It’s really funny to me that Cotham is a coach here now already, a guy who was just recently on the team and maybe the worst version of the Reds I’ve ever seen lol
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Ghosts, you gotta lay off the weaponized hallucinogens, my man.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    Quote Originally Posted by UPRedsFan View Post
    Barnhart calls the game doesn't he? So in reality isn't Cotham going to help Barnhart call a better game and by extension help the pitchers? With all the discussion of pitch framing, I wonder more about the catcher's ability to call a good game, remember the game plan and strategy on each hitter, etc. Wonder how Realmuto is regarded for calling pitches?
    I suspect that the strategy aspect of things will fall more on Johnson while Cotham will be more focused on development and execution of pitches.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Pitchers who will benefit from Coaches Johnson and Cotham?

    While we never know who might benefit from a pitching coach, all things considered, I'd typically bet on stuff.

    Had I done that with Milwaukee pitchers, I'd have been dead wrong.

    Milwaukee SP who bettered their career numbers ranged across the board in terms of scouting reports, previous experience, and previous production while Johnson was the Brewers' pitching coach. It might be more constructive to see who didn't take a jump forward under Johnson.

    Junior Guerra looks like his biggest "miss." Pre-Johnson, Guerra had a 2.70 ERA in 20 starts and looked like a real find as a 31-year-old rookie. He's turned back into a BOR guy the last two seasons. His scouting report/ Fangraphs page indicate a 93-ish mph over that time and his spin rate is middling.

    Another SP who hasn't blossomed as much as others thought he might have is Zach Davies. Pre-Johnson, he was a big winner and even in Johnson's first season, Davies was good (if lucky). But his K rate has slipped, and his BB rate has climbed-- as has his HR rate. Of course, he pitched less than 70 innings in the majors last season, so perhaps that's a small sample talking.

    As far as relief arms, there are quite a few-- and most of them are mid 30's veterans. Matt Albers was one. Boone Logan. Carlos Torres. Neftali Feliz.


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