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Thread: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

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    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    The other thread is over the 1,000 post limit so time for a new one:

    Question for the IU faithful:

    How confident are you guys keeping Keion Brooks in State?
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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    The other thread is over the 1,000 post limit so time for a new one:

    Question for the IU faithful:

    How confident are you guys keeping Keion Brooks in State?
    Me personally, not very.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    Me personally, not very.
    Co-sign.

    IMHO, it's a safe bet that KB signs with UK. That's the scuttlebutt here in his hometown.

    Either way, given the dissension and hodgepodge of a roster, I've reached the Blow It Up Archie, Make It Yours point, and am not really focused on the number of four and five star recruits Archie pulls in for next season.

    Now, I'm not all suggesting that the program doesn't need high-end/highly-rated talent. But at this point -- and this, IMHO, is the only way that a foundation for the type of sustained success we (Hoosier fans) are clamoring for can be achieved -- I simply hope to see a healthy, balanced roster largely comprised of players with high basketball IQs willing to buy-in, and oh, yes...more shooters. The next time such a situation occurs under CAM's tenure will be the first time.

    Having said that, considering that when first hired, CAM declared that he will not take shortcuts to cheat the process, I'm a little concerned that CAM may have at least a slight case of -- using a college football analogy -- (Former Nebraska HC) Bill Callahan's disease....Too married to a system to, aside from a small tweak here-and there, tailor his system to account for the strengths of heavily counted-on players (starters or reserves), which may not be ideal "fits" for his system. But I'm not the least concerned about him X-and-Oing or recruiting moving forward, and that's most of the battle right there.
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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Rev, I just scratch my head over this team. But as I said in the other thread, Archie says there is gonna be drastic changes coming. But they better show me something tonight or I will be officially done for the year.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Dayton Flyer fan (and IU alumnus) checking in. For the record, most Flyer fans were ready to move on from Archie (or at the very least were anxious) during his second season. He'd won 20 games his first year, then dropped to 17-14 in year two with no postseason tournament. The next two seasons resulted in Elite 8 and Sweet 16 runs (though the teams were hardly juggernauts). You could argue he underachieved in his final two years in Dayton though both resulted in NCAA tourney bids.

    By the end, he was of course beloved. He got better with the publicity, he had one really solid recruiting class and landed big-time transfers, but he always struck me as a a very good Xs and Os coach. I imagine this strikes you as strange, but UD made a Sweet 16 run with six scholarship players and a talented walk-on. Nobody was taller than 6'6". He wasn't winning with athleticism. Judging by players' comments after the fact, I don't think he was doing it through relationships or motivation. I think he was out-scheming the opposition.

    I mention all this irrelevant Dayton history to encourage you to hold out some hope. I've watched a few IU games this year, and they look like they're in disarray, but I would expect things to turn around next year. He never recruited well at Dayton. That doesn't seem to be the case in Bloomington. I think if he can get some buy-in, the Hoosiers will be much improved next year.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    Rev, I just scratch my head over this team. But as I said in the other thread, Archie says there is gonna be drastic changes coming. But they better show me something tonight or I will be officially done for the year.
    As a poster pointed out on another board, simply winning would be a drastic change.
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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Its still early, but I am glad OSU got Holtmann instead of Archie.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Its still early, but I am glad OSU got Holtmann instead of Archie.
    Both guys were destined to get gobbled up by major programs. Right now it is looking as though tOSU came out on the better end of the stick, but time will tell.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Its still early, but I am glad OSU got Holtmann instead of Archie.
    I think they're very different jobs. The ceiling on the IU job is higher. It's been a bit, but if you can get things going, it's a legit blue blood. The flip-side though is the hostility that comes from such an intense fan base. The bar for expectations at IU is really high (perhaps too high).

    Ohio State can be a very good program, but when it's down, it garners a shoulder shrug from most. Folks will bunker down and wait for the Spring Game. In Bloomington, they're calling for your head.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    I think they're very different jobs. The ceiling on the IU job is higher. It's been a bit, but if you can get things going, it's a legit blue blood. The flip-side though is the hostility that comes from such an intense fan base. The bar for expectations at IU is really high (perhaps too high).

    Ohio State can be a very good program, but when it's down, it garners a shoulder shrug from most. Folks will bunker down and wait for the Spring Game. In Bloomington, they're calling for your head.
    I think IU is a better job than OSU, but not by much. And if you look at it honestly each passing season IU continues to get further and further away from being a blue blood. I know its not the end all be all, but in the past twenty years IU has been seeded 1 in the NCAA once, and their next best seeding was 4. In the past 20 years they have one top 5 final ranking and seven times they weren't ranked. In the past twenty years, they haven't been very good.

    IU and OSU are different jobs. Basketball at IU is "the" sport, where basketball at OSU is something to bridge the gap between football and the spring game. I think the job at OSU is a top 10 job in the country, as long as you are ok being second fiddle. And if you are ok with that, its one heck of a gig. The pressure just isn't that high and the resources are fantastic. If you want to be BMOC, don't come to coach OSU basketball, but if you want to have a chance to win a title while coaching in a less pressure packed environment, it has everything you want.

    What I do find amazing, the last team to win a NCAA Title was MSU in 2000. And if you consider that was UC's tournament to win until Martin broke his leg, its pretty alarming.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I think IU is a better job than OSU, but not by much. And if you look at it honestly each passing season IU continues to get further and further away from being a blue blood. I know its not the end all be all, but in the past twenty years IU has been seeded 1 in the NCAA once, and their next best seeding was 4. In the past 20 years they have one top 5 final ranking and seven times they weren't ranked. In the past twenty years, they haven't been very good.

    IU and OSU are different jobs. Basketball at IU is "the" sport, where basketball at OSU is something to bridge the gap between football and the spring game. I think the job at OSU is a top 10 job in the country, as long as you are ok being second fiddle. And if you are ok with that, its one heck of a gig. The pressure just isn't that high and the resources are fantastic. If you want to be BMOC, don't come to coach OSU basketball, but if you want to have a chance to win a title while coaching in a less pressure packed environment, it has everything you want.

    What I do find amazing, the last team to win a NCAA Title was MSU in 2000. And if you consider that was UC's tournament to win until Martin broke his leg, its pretty alarming.
    Having lived in Bloomington, I can tell you the energy for basketball is still there. The only thing comparable in my experiences, coincidentally, is OSU football. So, I'm not sure the win-losses argument has much traction yet. It's a powder keg. If someone can get that program rolling, it'll be something to behold. Hope it does too. That's a big part of the culture.

    And to turn this back over to the resident Hoosiers (on a negative note), tough game last night. That was a February B1G battle; ugly. It's probably too late -- and he already promised dramatic changes -- but hard to see this season getting turned around.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I think IU is a better job than OSU, but not by much. And if you look at it honestly each passing season IU continues to get further and further away from being a blue blood. I know its not the end all be all, but in the past twenty years IU has been seeded 1 in the NCAA once, and their next best seeding was 4. In the past 20 years they have one top 5 final ranking and seven times they weren't ranked. In the past twenty years, they haven't been very good.

    IU and OSU are different jobs. Basketball at IU is "the" sport, where basketball at OSU is something to bridge the gap between football and the spring game. I think the job at OSU is a top 10 job in the country, as long as you are ok being second fiddle. And if you are ok with that, its one heck of a gig. The pressure just isn't that high and the resources are fantastic. If you want to be BMOC, don't come to coach OSU basketball, but if you want to have a chance to win a title while coaching in a less pressure packed environment, it has everything you want.

    What I do find amazing, the last team to win a NCAA Title was MSU in 2000. And if you consider that was UC's tournament to win until Martin broke his leg, its pretty alarming.
    This is (more or less) where I am.

    Granted, this amounts to nit-picking and a pet peeve of mine, I know, but I'm beginning to really HATE the term "blue blood" in regards to College Basketball. IMHO, that term is better utilized within CFB, where the terms "blue blood" and "elite program" more often dovetail. One's a historical term that denotes periods of time in which a program operated as a sustained, elite program, while one -- the only one of the two that amounts to a hill of beans in regards to recruiting relevance to today's recruiting kids/targets -- denotes more of the current state of a program.

    That said, the point about IU, with each passing season, moving further and further away from a point in which IU's status as an historical blue blood can be viewed as a positive with recruits is VERY relevant --- not as much as the fact that IU hasn't been an sustained, elite program for over 25 years (no getting around it, and largely no fault but their own) but relevant, nonetheless.

    Also, the comparison between the programs (OSU and IU) is, IMHO, spot-on. OSU seems to fly under the radar as an elite job, but it's definitely a top 10 job to me. And if IU is considered a top 5 five job by most accounts, while OSU safely lands in the top 10, that tells me that the ceiling for the OSU job is right there with IU's.

    Lastly, even more alarming that a B1G NCAA title drought, is the fact that since '00 and the MSU victory -- and I may be forgetting a team or two -- only on 5 occasions ('02, '07, '09, '13 and '18) has a B1G team reached the National Championship game. That's truly bizarre.
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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Its still early, but I am glad OSU got Holtmann instead of Archie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    Both guys were destined to get gobbled up by major programs. Right now it is looking as though tOSU came out on the better end of the stick, but time will tell.
    The grievous error at the time of both hires by both fan-bases, as well as the National media/talking-heads and CBB fans as a whole: The assumption that CAM was walking into a better a situation than Holtmann.

    No matter how one chooses to spin it, for various reasons, the reverse has proven to be true.

    Which would you rather inherit? Matta's players or Crean's players?

    Yeah, me too.

    Having said that, I'll go back to what I stated at the time of Holtmann's hire, which still holds true today.......Neither coach has ever coached a team (at least on paper) as talented as Crean's last IU team (even sans an injured Anunoby), which, somehow, still managed to fall short of the NCAAs. Give either coach that much to work with and that team should be a Sweet 16 lock.

    That's all it's going to take for either coach.
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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    The B1G's drought is alarming. To me, the early entrants have affected our conference more than any other.
    ...and this one belongs to the Reds.

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    Re: Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

    Archie will win huge his 4th year.

    We got the right guy, he just needs time.
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