The Sonny Gray Thread

[Griffey012]

https://sports.yahoo.com/sonny-gray-...225323231.html

This article IMO throws up a lot of Red flags about Gray.
Did not like him throwing the Yankees under the Bus reminded me of Latos when he left.
Did not like the perception of hardheadedness and not listening to coaches and analytics (His slider has been way more effective than fastballs)

I am glad that he wants to improve but his attitude leaves much to be desired.

Sounds like he is wanting to throw fastballs more which as you can see by brooks baseball gets hit harder and has way less swing and miss. To me this sounds like a bad plan analytically. Who knows maybe the analytics are wrongs?

Latos called out pretty much the entire team. Gray is calling out analytics and changes the coaching staff made him utilize, and has information to back it up. Bit of a difference there, IMO.

Also, where do you get the perception of hardheadedness? Gray has seemed interest and more than willing to make changes to improve himself. His issue was that the changes he made with the Yankees didn't help his performance. And as the article states, his slider was effective in terms of stats against it but it ignores the fact he struggled to throw it for strikes:

As Gray notes, it wasn’t necessarily about the results with the slider, it was that the pitch put him in tough situations. That part is true. Gray threw his slider for balls more frequently with the Yankees. That may have led to Gray getting behind in more counts, which is never good for a pitcher.

The athletic article goes into a lot of detail about the issues with the fastball. Gray doesn't have a fastball geared well to throw up in the zone, which is exactly where the Yankees were having him throw his fastball.

[InsaneinthBrame]

Latos called out pretty much the entire team. Gray is calling out analytics and changes the coaching staff made him utilize, and has information to back it up. Bit of a difference there, IMO.

Also, where do you get the perception of hardheadedness?

It was from this quote
"Also from the report, Gray said that in his final outing with the Yankees — a relief appearance against the Red Sox — Gray said “(forget) ‘em” and went with his own plan. He ended up throwing two scoreless innings at Fenway Park."

I also find him blaming stuff on his slider when he only increase its use from 14-16% which is two sliders a game.

To me his fastball has become more hittable because it is now average in velocity. The new approach of elevating the ball and attacking fastballs and the average MLB basically plateauing 3 years at 92.7 have combined for his fastball to lose effectiveness. I think the same convergence of circumstances made Bailey lose his effectiveness.

IMO Gray needs to transform into a junkball pitcher(more breaking pitches) or develop elite command.

[Griffey012]

It was from this quote
"Also from the report, Gray said that in his final outing with the Yankees — a relief appearance against the Red Sox — Gray said “(forget) ‘em” and went with his own plan. He ended up throwing two scoreless innings at Fenway Park."

I also find him blaming stuff on his slider when he only increase its use from 14-16% which is two sliders a game.

To me his fastball has become more hittable because it is now average in velocity. The new approach of elevating the ball and attacking fastballs and the average MLB basically plateauing 3 years at 92.7 have combined for his fastball to lose effectiveness. I think the same convergence of circumstances made Bailey lose his effectiveness.

IMO Gray needs to transform into a junkball pitcher(more breaking pitches) or develop elite command.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a good chunk of the 22.8% curveballs were mis-tracked sliders. Gray even said “I didn’t throw as many curveballs, and that’s when it started to morph and lose shape,” Gray said of 2018." But his stats show a big uptick in curveball usage.

I agree his fastball is surely more hittable due to the increase in velocity seen across the league. Gray's issue with the Yankees was that they had him elevating his fastball, but the work he has done with Johnson and Cotham this off-season showed his high-spin fastball doesn't get the "rise" to make an effective pitch, thus it is not a good pitch to throw up in the zone. The Yankees seemed to have missed that part and just blamed it on luck.

My guess is in 2019 Gray throws a lot more actual curveballs, throws fewer sliders, throws a bit more fastballs.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.asp...on=P#pitchtype

[UPRedsFan]

Sonny Gray is THE biggest key to competitiveness.

It's not Senzel sticking in centerfield. An offense with Winker/Puig/Schebler/Kemp in the outfield instead of Winker/Puig/Senzel/Schebler/Kemp is not a big a difference in my opinion.

But a rotation with the 2017 version of Sonny Gray at the top will give the Reds a legitimate chance to take the division.

[InsaneinthBrame]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a good chunk of the 22.8% curveballs were mis-tracked sliders. Gray even said “I didn’t throw as many curveballs, and that’s when it started to morph and lose shape,” Gray said of 2018." But his stats show a big uptick in curveball usage.

I agree his fastball is surely more hittable due to the increase in velocity seen across the league. Gray's issue with the Yankees was that they had him elevating his fastball, but the work he has done with Johnson and Cotham this off-season showed his high-spin curveball doesn't get the "rise" to make an effective pitch, thus it is a good pitch to throw up in the zone. The Yankees seemed to have missed that part and just blamed it on luck.

My guess is in 2019 Gray throws a lot more actual curveballs, throws fewer sliders, throws a bit more fastballs.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.asp...on=P#pitchtype

They do need to do something different. I think it is a large and difficult task. I think our park and our defense will make it even more challenging.

[redsrule2500]

How many times have our pitchers been injured and it was missed by Kremcheck?

Gary Majewski, Ryan Madson come immediately to mind.

[OGB]

How many times have our pitchers been injured and it was missed by Kremcheck?

Gary Majewski, Ryan Madson come immediately to mind.

Go home Dad, you're drunk.

[NebraskaRed]

comparing someone to Mat Latos? Let's not say things we can never take back

[membengal]

He had a nice debut. He’s ahead of Alex Wood all of a sudden.

[mth123]

I was encouraged by Gray's outing. Results don't mean much at this point, but 32 pitches is nice for a first outing. 3 more starts, maybe 4. He should get up to starters load by the time his first start rolls around.

I'm probably the low man on Gray and there is no doubt he's an improvement on last year's guys, but he needs to be the pre-injury Gray to justify the excitement. He's the guy the chose as the long term fix and that seems pretty risky to me. Hope he is.

[RedTeamGo!]

I was encouraged by Gray's outing. Results don't mean much at this point, but 32 pitches is nice for a first outing. 3 more starts, maybe 4. He should get up to starters load by the time his first start rolls around.

I'm probably the low man on Gray and there is no doubt he's an improvement on last year's guys, but he needs to be the pre-injury Gray to justify the excitement. He's the guy the chose as the long term fix and that seems pretty risky to me. Hope he is.

He’s a long term fix, not the long term fix.

Dickie and The Krull are going to keep looking up to this deadline and next offseason for more long term fixes.

[Bruce Berenyi]

I hope Sonny Grey is not a hybrid of

Sonny Ruberto and ace reliever Jeff Grey

[Larry Schuler]

He’s a long term fix, not the long term fix.

Dickie and The Krull are going to keep looking up to this deadline and next offseason for more long term fixes.

Not your intention but your post has sparked a fascinating notion within me: is it possible the new Dick Williams is not a clone but a Skrull?

[Ron Madden]

One reason Cincinnati obtained Gray was that Johnson was his Vanderbilt pitching coach and vouched for the competitor and person. He said Gray is not scrapping the slider but is returning to “his roots” by relying more on his sinker/curve strengths.

“His stuff is really good,” Johnson said. “His breaking ball is still a weapon. You add a little confidence into that and certainly he can be a top-of-the-rotation kind of guy.”

https://nypost.com/2019/03/11/reds-s...-response/amp/

[redsrule2500]

Go home Dad, you're drunk.

Thanks for your pointless non-rebuttal. Anyone else unable to argue my point?