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Thread: Game of Thrones Season 8

  1. #346
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    This was always coming. They didn't hide it. Dany didn't break character. She just reached the point where people had to recognize her will to conquer wasn't altruistic. They let us think it was because that's the standard story, but this was never the standard story.
    Tyrion to Jon:

    "When she murdered the slavers or Astapor, no one but the slavers complained. After all, they were evil men. When she crucified hundreds of Meereenese nobles, who could argue? They were evil men. The Dothraki Kahls she burned alive. They would have done worse to her. Everywhere she goes, evil men die and we cheer her for it. And she grows more powerful and more sure that she is good and right. She believes her destiny is to build a better world for everyone. If you believed that...truly believed that...wouldn't you kill whomever stood between you and paradise?"

    Tyrion literally explained it to Jon and the entire viewing audience. It wasn't so much a "turn" of her personality, but a change in context that outed her as a self-absorbed tyrant bolstered by claims of "destiny" and a dragon or three.

    Daenerys used the phrase "break the wheel" a lot, but the reality is that she was a slave to it wherever she traveled. In fact, her claim to the Iron Throne itself only holds if "the wheel" is in one piece and spinning firmly in place.

    BTW, in the books, during the sacking of Astapor, Daenerys orders that only children younger than 12 be spared. I'm sure the Unsullied and Dothraki forces weren't checking birth certificates, so that probably meant that most children 10 years old or or older were slaughtered. The show glossed that over by changing it to "harm no child".
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  4. #347
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    With over 5,000 reviews the user rating on IMDB is down to 4.5. Ouch. That is about as low as I've seen a rating for what had been considered an all time great show. I don't think any of the others in the discussion (Breaking Bad, The Wire etc...) had anything like that. At least not at the end. Maybe Lost, but I wouldn't put it in GOT class.

  5. #348
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Tyrion to Jon:

    "When she murdered the slavers or Astapor, no one but the slavers complained. After all, they were evil men. When she crucified hundreds of Meereenese nobles, who could argue? They were evil men. The Dothraki Kahls she burned alive. They would have done worse to her. Everywhere she goes, evil men die and we cheer her for it. And she grows more powerful and more sure that she is good and right. She believes her destiny is to build a better world for everyone. If you believed that...truly believed that...wouldn't you kill whomever stood between you and paradise?"

    Tyrion literally explained it to Jon and the entire viewing audience. It wasn't so much a "turn" of her personality, but a change in context that outed her as a self-absorbed tyrant bolstered by claims of "destiny" and a dragon or three.

    Daenerys used the phrase "break the wheel" a lot, but the reality is that she was a slave to it wherever she traveled. In fact, her claim to the Iron Throne itself only holds if "the wheel" is in one piece and spinning firmly in place.

    BTW, in the books, during the sacking of Astapor, Daenerys orders that only children younger than 12 be spared. I'm sure the Unsullied and Dothraki forces weren't checking birth certificates, so that probably meant that most children 10 years old or or older were slaughtered. The show glossed that over by changing it to "harm no child".
    Tyrion didn’t actually say that. D&D did. It was nothing more than a sad attempt by the writers to explain a majorly plot hole their bad writing created. Anytime you need one character to make a speech justifying another character’s actions, you have failed as a writer.
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  6. #349
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Tyrion didn’t actually say that. D&D did. It was nothing more than a sad attempt by the writers to explain a majorly plot hole their bad writing created. Anytime you need one character to make a speech justifying another character’s actions, you have failed as a writer.
    There are characters who assume the role of the ‘voice of reason’ and who verbalize themes in every show and movie. It’s not bad writing because of that. GoT suffered in the final seasons because the writing leaned towards forward moving plot and lost the contemplative and character building moments between the plot AND because some vocal fans decided they’d rather play the interactive game “I’ll Prove I’m Right About This Show’s Writers Being Terrible!” and view every scene through that fixed conclusion than actually watch the show for what it was doing. There were good moments throughout the final two seasons and Tyrion explaining the score to idiot Jon Snow was satisfying because he needed to have some sense smacked into his head, as did some audience as well it seems.
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  8. #350
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    There are characters who assume the role of the ‘voice of reason’ and who verbalize themes in every show and movie. It’s not bad writing because of that. GoT suffered in the final seasons because the writing leaned towards forward moving plot and lost the contemplative and character building moments between the plot AND because some vocal fans decided they’d rather play the interactive game “I’ll Prove I’m Right About This Show’s Writers Being Terrible!” and view every scene through that fixed conclusion than actually watch the show for what it was doing. There were good moments throughout the final two seasons and Tyrion explaining the score to idiot Jon Snow was satisfying because he needed to have some sense smacked into his head, as did some audience as well it seems.
    The "voice of reason" explains what to do next, never explains what just happened or why. The latter is exposition, usually a sin for writers. If your character's actions and words were not enough to explain what happened and why, you did a bad job of writing. That's Lifetime and Michael Bay level writing.

    And for the record, the reason why so many people are upset over how bad the writing was, is because they loved the writing up to this point.
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  9. #351
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Tyrion didnÂ’t actually say that. D&D did. It was nothing more than a sad attempt by the writers to explain a majorly plot hole their bad writing created. Anytime you need one character to make a speech justifying another characterÂ’s actions, you have failed as a writer.
    Did you really think it critical to explain that writers write what actors say when playing their characters? C'mon.

    Regardless of the unnecessary nit you just picked, the story not going in your preferred direction doesn't qualify as a "plot hole". Anyone paying attention knew who Daenerys was. The only people fooled were the ones who had determined early on that her character simply must follow the usual repressed hero archetype. If you thought that or missed what was happening, that's on you as a viewer.

    I was actually quite hopeful that Tyrion's exposition would explain things to anyone who was still clinging to the concept that Daenerys Targaryen was an altruistic liberating do-gooder who just suddenly and inexplicably broke bad.

    Apparently, too hopeful...
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  10. #352
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilHamburger View Post
    With over 5,000 reviews the user rating on IMDB is down to 4.5. Ouch. That is about as low as I've seen a rating for what had been considered an all time great show. I don't think any of the others in the discussion (Breaking Bad, The Wire etc...) had anything like that. At least not at the end. Maybe Lost, but I wouldn't put it in GOT class.
    Again, the IMDb ratings were brigaded by online nerds before the episodes even aired. I thought the finale was pretty weak, but those ratings mean less than nothing.
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  12. #353
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Did you really think it critical to explain that writers write what actors say when playing their characters? C'mon.

    Regardless of the unnecessary nit you just picked, the story not going in your preferred direction doesn't qualify as a "plot hole". Anyone paying attention knew who Daenerys was. The only people fooled were the ones who had determined early on that her character simply must follow the usual repressed hero archetype. If you thought that or missed what was happening, that's on you as a viewer.

    I was actually quite hopeful that Tyrion's exposition would explain things to anyone who was still clinging to the concept that Daenerys Targaryen was an altruistic liberating do-gooder who just suddenly and inexplicably broke bad.

    Apparently, too hopeful...
    A plot hole is something that isn’t fully explained. The fact that they had Tyrion explain her motivation proves that the writers knew it wasn’t fully explained and thus a plot hole. There is no reason to later explain why something happened in a story, except to attempt to fill in a plot hole.
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  13. #354
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    He was talking Jon into killing her. Tyrion spent 8 seasons manipulating people and he did it one last time. The writers didn’t have to explain it, anyone paying attention the week before knew she had to die, Jon needed to be pushed into doing the deed, and Tyrion, the master manipulator, gave him the shove.

    This really isn’t that difficult to grasp.

    If you want to ***** about a plot hole, Jon not being killed by 10,000 unsullied and Dothraki after murdering their queen is inexplicable.
    Last edited by RedTeamGo!; 05-20-2019 at 10:54 PM.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Again, the IMDb ratings were brigaded by online nerds before the episodes even aired. I thought the finale was pretty weak, but those ratings mean less than nothing.
    IMDB Ratings and most user rating don’t mean much. But this finale got a lower user rating than the Dexter finale, which I thought would never be beaten.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    IMDB Ratings and most user rating don’t mean much. But this finale got a lower user rating than the Dexter finale, which I thought would never be beaten.
    Again, the IMDb ratings were brigaded by online nerds before the episodes even aired. I thought the finale was pretty weak, but those ratings mean less than nothing.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  17. #357
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    He was talking Jon into killing her. Tyrion spent 8 seasons manipulating people and he did it one last time.

    This really isn’t that difficult to grasp.

    If you want to ***** about a plot hole, Jon not being killed by 10,000 unsullied and Dothraki after murdering their queen is inexplicable.
    Why would he defend Dany, provide justification for her actions, if he was trying to convince Jon to kill her? That part made no sense, except to cover the writer’s previous mistakes. And literally two other friends I was watching it with said the same thing out loud as he was saying it. It was obvious.

    And you are correct. So many other bigger plot holes.
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  18. #358
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    A plot hole is something that isn’t fully explained. The fact that they had Tyrion explain her motivation proves that the writers knew it wasn’t fully explained and thus a plot hole. There is no reason to later explain why something happened in a story, except to attempt to fill in a plot hole.
    The fact that Tyrion explained it to Jon doesn't count as a "plot hole" and it WAS already fully explained via the story to viewers who'd been paying attention. Jon Snow, and apparently most viewers, were in denial.

    In fact, I posted this prior to the last two episodes:

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    I dunno. Daenerys has presided over more than a couple violent episodes while she remained a sympathetic character. First, she took over the Dothraki by murdering the Khals- driven by the unfulfilled promise of their aid in her quest to take back the Iron Throne. Then the sack and burning of Astapor, the bloody liberation of Yunkai, crucifying 160-odd slave masters in Mereen. If I remember correctly, didn't she feed on of the Mereen leaders to her dragons? Then there's the hasty execution of Dickon and Randyll Tarly...

    Daenerys is a blunt instrument rather than a scalpel and has been for years. Oh yeah, there's some justification for the violence, but her first instinct has always been to go with the most extreme measure. Her character has walked an incredibly fine line between "liberator" and "conqueror" for much of the show, so I don't think a turn for the worst would be either surprising or unbelievable. It's been a constant narrative for many seasons.

    In fact, I have a feeling that the "Drakarys" from Missandei is likely more a "Burn them all!" declaration than folks might suspect. Given Dany's slant and her current mindset, I don't see that it would be at all out of character for her to try to do just that; ignoring the lives of the innocent civilians inside the Red Keep grounds in the process.
    M2, among others, also nailed the plot because they were paying attention. In fact, if the writers had asked Tyrion to say the following, it would have been just as good:

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    She's been turning for years in the shows. Season seven flirting with melting King's landing. Season six in the wasteland. Season five as a truly crap queen. The sleight of hand was always that we didn't like who she was conquering, but she destroyed three different cultures on her way to Westeros. Why did anyone think Westeros would be spared that fate?

    At the end of season six when she was on the boats heading across the sea, no one should have thought that was going to end well. She was bringing an army to scour the land.
    It's been explained over and over.
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    The fact that Tyrion explained it to Jon doesn't count as a "plot hole" and it WAS already fully explained via the story to viewers who'd been paying attention. Jon Snow, and apparently most viewers, were in denial.

    In fact, I posted this prior to the last two episodes:

    M2, among others, also nailed the plot because they were paying attention. In fact, if the writers had asked Tyrion to say the following, it would have been just as good:


    It's been explained over and over.
    Tyrion explaining isn't a plot hole. What he is explaining is a plot hole, by definition, because he is explaining it.

    If it wasn't a plot hole, if it was fully explained, the writers wouldn't feel the need to explain it, to fill in the plot hole.

    The plot hole may be there only because most people are like me and aren't as smart as people like you and M2. But it's still a plot hole if it needs to be explained.
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  20. #360
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    Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    There are characters who assume the role of the ‘voice of reason’ and who verbalize themes in every show and movie. It’s not bad writing because of that.
    Sometimes it is though. You wouldn't need this kind of exposition if the groundwork had been laid properly.

    Imagine the last scene in Breaking Bad with Skylar and Walter if she had run down all the things he had done and how weird and hackish that would have felt.

    Anyway, in an industry where everyone wants to keep working, it's remarkable how much backlash has come from the actual actors:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7U...index=127&t=0s

    Kit Harrington there! Wild.

    Anyway, this is brilliant and I hope it's where the books go (lol we aren't getting books, but for sake of conversation) - I think they might because the argument is very persuasive.

    My GoT theory I’ve been going on about for nearly a decade might be true

    https://medium.com/@GeneticJen/spoil...e-cb8c9c8e894c

    The "Bran is God and orchestrated everything" argument. The books have laid the groundwork and it would explain the ending - which we know Martin gave to these two idiots.
    “When I use a word,” Trumpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Trumpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

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