In 1879 White pitched 680 innings with a 1.99 era Won 43 games and lost 31 and pitched for 10 seasons in the big leagues.. Something was definitely different then..
In 1879 White pitched 680 innings with a 1.99 era Won 43 games and lost 31 and pitched for 10 seasons in the big leagues.. Something was definitely different then..
The Pitchers box was 45 feet away, the ball was made of sawdust, he didn't lift his arm above his shoulder and the batter got to call for where he wanted his pitch. The whole game was designed to have the pitcher lob it in and have his fielders carry his load.
M2 (05-23-2019)
You trying to say it was a LOT easier on pitchers back then? Nahhhh.. Judging by my grandfathers scars on his legs it was still a pretty rough game back then..Not to mention all his fingers were broken in multiple places.. He was a catcher, but born a little later around 1896 or thereabouts..Originally Posted by westofyou
Last edited by mamell; 05-21-2019 at 11:17 PM.
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying
M2 (05-23-2019),Ron Madden (05-23-2019)
Also the game in 1896 was vastly different than the game was in 1879
M2 (05-23-2019),Ron Madden (05-23-2019)
He couldve lasted 30 years if they wouldve kept him on a strict pitch count.In 1879 White pitched 680 innings with a 1.99 era Won 43 games and lost 31 and pitched for 10 seasons in the big leagues.. Something was definitely different then..
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Hoosier Red (05-24-2019)
Don't worry folks.. Soon as RobSteve is cloned to be Will White he too will win 43 games a season.. That and he'll need to be transported back in time.. Easy Peasy!
If you want a pitching paragon that's relatable to modern Reds history go with Noodles Hahn...4X 20 game winner by the age of 24, out of baseball by 27....repeated pattern followed with Hod Eller - done by 26, Pete Donohue the forgotten great arm of the 20s who flamed out by 25, Gene Thompson who pitched brilliantly in 39 and 40 and was burned out at 24, Ewell Blackwell essentially burned out at 27, Jim Maloney all but done by 29, Gary Nolan flamed out by 24 but remade himself into a cunning junkballer, Wayne Simspon overworked and broke during his terrific rookie season, Mario Soto lasting only to age 28......and White was done by 30 lasting just 2 years into the modern overhand era before going poof. Over and over through Reds history, bright young pitchers have been used, abused and burned up. And most of the best Reds pitchers that had lasting careers came from elsewhere - Luque, Rixey, Derringer, Walters, Seaver.
99% of all numbers only tell 33% of the story so when looking at the numbers remember that numbers is plural...
cumberlandreds (05-24-2019),M2 (05-23-2019),Old school 1983 (05-25-2019),Ron Madden (05-23-2019)
Don Gullett was another arm that flamed out way too soon. 91 wins and two World Championships by age 25, and out of baseball by age 28.
Johnny Vander Meer was a durable homegrown arm for the Reds, pitching 11 years for the Reds from 1937 to 1949 (he lost two years to military service in WWII). But I think many people are surprised to find out that the Dutch Master was really a #3 or #4-type innings-eater rather than a top of the rotation stud. He definitely had electric stuff (4x All-Star and of course the back-to-back no-hitters), but he was never able to completely harness it. He led the NL in strikeouts three times, and walks twice (including 1943, in which he led the league in both categories).
Last edited by Big Klu; 05-24-2019 at 11:19 AM.
Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.
cumberlandreds (05-24-2019),Old school 1983 (05-25-2019),Ron Madden (05-23-2019)
That's a sad legacy. However, if you look at other teams, I'm sure you will have similar results. Teams used and abused pitchers back in the day. No one blinked an eye at a guy throwing 150 pitches plus then coming back and doing it again on 3 days rest. It's a wonder guys like Nolan Ryan lasted as long as they did.
There is absolutely no doubt that MLB and MiLB have burnt arms out at an astonishing rate and continue to do it to this day. It's probably the reason most guys who can throw 100+ every day are in bullpens these days. I think the days of a pitcher able to go 7-8 innings throwing well over 99 over any extended time frame are over or soon will be. The human body can take a lot of punishment and medical science has improved drastically, but there are still limits.
Nothing tells me more that the game back then was different than the all time leader list for assist in a season by pitchers.
The top 100 seasons of pitchers with the most assists has 65 guys before 1900, the latest date is Carl Mays who threw submarine style, was thought to throw the spit ball (as the majority of the post 1900 guys did) It's telling that the ball only went as far as a the pitcher
Code:ASSISTS YEAR A 1 Ed Walsh 1907 227 2 Will White 1882 223 3 Ed Walsh 1908 190 4 Harry Howell 1905 178 5 Tony Mullane 1882 177 6 John Clarkson 1885 174 7 John Clarkson 1889 172 8 Matt Kilroy 1887 167 9 Jack Chesbro 1904 166 10 George Mullin 1904 163 11 Ed Walsh 1911 159 12 Bill Hutchison 1892 156 T13 Pud Galvin 1884 154 T13 Frank Smith 1909 154 T13 Ed Walsh 1910 154 16 Mark Baldwin 1890 146 T17 Guy Hecker 1884 145 T17 Park Swartzel 1889 145 T17 Cy Young 1896 145 T20 Tommy Bond 1879 144 T20 Al Mays 1887 144 T20 Jack Taylor 1898 144 T23 Harry Howell 1904 143 T23 Addie Joss 1907 143 25 Tim Keefe 1883 142 T26 Pud Galvin 1879 141 T26 Tommy Bond 1880 141 T26 Sadie McMahon 1891 141 T26 Christy Mathewson 1908 141 30 Ed Walsh 1912 140 T31 Old Hoss Radbourn 1883 139 T31 Matt Kilroy 1889 139 T31 Silver King 1890 139 T31 Sadie McMahon 1890 139 T35 Claude Hendrix 1914 137 T35 Hooks Dauss 1915 137 37 Jim McCormick 1880 135 T38 Monte Ward 1879 134 T38 George Mullin 1905 134 T40 Monte Ward 1880 133 T40 Bill Sweeney 1884 133 T40 Henry Porter 1888 133 T40 George Mullin 1907 133 T44 George Bradley 1879 132 T44 Larry Corcoran 1884 132 T44 Tony Mullane 1884 132 T44 Amos Rusie 1892 132 T44 Nick Altrock 1905 132 T49 Red Donahue 1902 130 T49 Frank Owen 1904 130 51 Amos Rusie 1890 129 T52 Sam Weaver 1882 128 T52 Jim Whitney 1885 128 T52 Bill Hutchison 1890 128 T52 Elmer Stricklett 1906 128 T56 Pud Galvin 1883 127 T56 Joe McGinnity 1904 127 T58 John Clarkson 1887 125 T58 Ed Seward 1888 125 T60 Larry McKeon 1884 124 T60 Harry Howell 1907 124 T62 Pud Galvin 1881 123 T62 Charlie Sweeney 1884 123 T62 Pud Galvin 1887 123 T62 Harry Coveleski 1914 123 T66 Larry Corcoran 1880 122 T66 Charlie Buffinton 1888 122 T66 Cy Young 1892 122 T66 Cy Young 1898 122 T66 Carl Mays 1918 122 T71 Frank Killen 1892 121 T71 Gene Packard 1914 121 T71 Nick Cullop 1915 121 T74 Kid Carsey 1891 120 T74 Cy Young 1895 120 T74 Ed Scott 1900 120 T74 Frank Owen 1905 120 T74 Grover C Alexander 1915 120 T79 Jim McCormick 1879 119 T79 Old Hoss Radbourn 1884 119 T79 Silver King 1888 119 T79 Phil Knell 1891 119 T79 Harry Coveleski 1916 119 T84 John Coleman 1883 118 T84 Charlie Buffinton 1884 118 T84 Charlie Buffinton 1885 118 T84 Carl Mays 1917 118 T88 Tommy Bond 1878 117 T88 Jim McCormick 1884 117 T88 Billy Taylor 1884 117 T88 John Clarkson 1888 117 T88 Charlie Buffinton 1891 117 T88 Cy Young 1899 117 T88 Ned Garvin 1903 117 T88 Vic Willis 1906 117 T88 Carl Mays 1916 117 T88 Carl Mays 1926 117 T98 Matt Kilroy 1886 116 T98 George Haddock 1891 116 T98 Christy Mathewson 1904 116 T98 Christy Mathewson 1905 116 T98 Doc White 1908 116
cumberlandreds (05-24-2019),KronoRed (05-24-2019),RiverRat13 (05-24-2019)
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