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Thread: Votto - HOF?

  1. #136
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    This thread has a lot of silly.

    Iíll add one more thing and then you guys can compare Votto to Hank Aaron

    Itís really hard to compare different eras in baseball. Look at the value of SB in the 80ís? For a while there was a big value in BB. Strikeouts in the 50ís compared to now? Launch angle, exit velo. Things change. Votto is Votto. Votto goes to the plate trying to do something different than Suarez. Votto wants to put a great swing on a hittable pitch within the strike zone. Suarez is trying to rip HR and doubles into LCF.

    Rickey Henderson is the only comp to Votto I can think of as far as working to take walks. Votto does it because it gets him on base and getting on base is never a bad thing. It keeps him helping the team when he isnít hitting great. Rickey worked the walks to attain SB opportunities. Rickey played 24? years and other than the occasional runner on 2nd/3rd scenario.....no one ever unintentionally intentionally walked him......Votto gets a decent number of those (used to be more than now)...Votto when he was a good power hitter got a lot of those unintentional intentional walks and why not with 2 outs and no one on. It would take 2 hits (maybe) or a triple+ to score him as he is a slow/bad base runner. The kudos to him goes for not chasing bad pitches in those situations but heís very smart and I feel he knew his situation most of the time. If Votto has 100 PA...pitchers never ďintentionallyĒ help him get a double but a number of times theyíll ďintentionallyĒ walk him.

    Joe Morgan worked walks and could steal 60 and had best team ever behind him to score him....but players in Vottoís mold tried to drive in runs in the 70ís and many other decades.

    Itís really hard to compare different eras IMO. Wasnít really long ago batting average and wins were key key stats for players.

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  4. #137
    Just a Fan RiverfrontRed's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Dale Murphy won back to back MVP's at age 26-27 and then fell off a cliff at age 32. 9 years of gold glove defense in CF with an OPS+ of 139 surrounded by a bunch of average years and it wasn't enough to get him serious consideration by the writers.
    Dale Murphy is an interesting comp.

  5. #138
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I cant believe this is even in discussion. Of course Votto belongs in the Canadian baseball HOF.

  6. #139
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    This thread has a lot of silly.
    I'm still confused by the argument that Joe Morgan was nothing special until he joined the Reds. Joe Morgan was the best second baseman in the NL between 1965-71 and it really wasn't even close. He was actually the second best second baseman in the bigs during that period having darn near won ROY and he also went to a couple of all-star games despite playing in Houston, a franchise that had yet to have a winning season since it's entry into the league.

    I mean, I guess, Votto is no Michael Jordan.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  8. #140
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverfrontRed View Post
    Dale Murphy is an interesting comp.
    Dale Murphy got his GG's by fraud and he really only was an offensive force for a few seasons.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #141
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Dale Murphy got his GG's by fraud and he really only was an offensive force for a few seasons.
    I watched Dale Murphy way more than any other star if the 80ís. TBS baby! I never felt Murphy was that great. He was a touch it catch it guy in CF. I thought he was a better RF. Offensively he didnít seem elite but a few years say otherwise. What I remember is how often he took bad swings at sliders 6-12 inches out of the zone. Iíve watched even more of Votto...Iíve never once seen him swing at that pitch.

    To me Murphy was a large large man that was a very good baseball player for a pretty good amount of time. He was an 80ís all-star. His career fell off surprisingly fast. Heís not in the HOF discussion for me at all.

  10. #142
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Although I think Morgan has made it clear that being around Rose spurred him into being a better more consistent player, at the time I don't think ANYBODY appreciated how the astrodome affected hitters numbers or how valuable walks were.

    My 10 year old self thought the valuable property coming over in that trade was Denis Menke the astros "all star" third baseman who was the sore thumb that the reds finally covered up by moving Rose to 3b effectively replacing a 240/340/320 hitter with 280/350/500 George Foster.
    See, that's the thing I was getting at. Back when the trade was made, nobody realized how much the astrodome took away from Morgan's stats. He wasn't special, and just about all Reds fans hated the trade when it went down.

    This trade would never have looked so great had the Reds not accidentally acquired Lee May's replacement in 1971 by obtaining George Foster. Because prior to Foster being inserted in the lineup, this trade looked like a wash. Once Foster got inserted and the Reds started running roughshod over everyone, it became a lot clearer how valuable Billingham and Geronomo were. Of course it became a lot clearer how valuable Morgan was too as he then proceeded to put up numbers we never saw before.

  11. #143
    Middle Class Rut TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    If you want an interesting comp for Votto, you don't even have to leave the organization. Just compare him to Frank Robinson as a Red. In fact, compare each player's first ten years, or all of Robinson's time as a Red.

    Votto
    Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ Awards
    2007 23 24 89 84 11 27 7 0 4 17 1 0 5 15 0.321 0.360 0.548 0.907 127
    2008 24 151 589 526 69 156 32 3 24 84 7 5 59 102 0.297 0.368 0.506 0.874 125 RoY-2
    2009 25 131 544 469 82 151 38 1 25 84 4 1 70 106 0.322 0.414 0.567 0.981 156 MVP-22
    2010 26 150 648 547 106 177 36 2 37 113 16 5 91 125 0.324 0.424 0.600 1.024 171 AS,MVP-1
    2011 27 161 719 599 101 185 40 3 29 103 8 6 110 129 0.309 0.416 0.531 0.947 155 AS,MVP-6,GG
    2012 28 111 475 374 59 126 44 0 14 56 5 3 94 85 0.337 0.474 0.567 1.041 177 AS,MVP-14
    2013 29 162 726 581 101 177 30 3 24 73 6 3 135 138 0.305 0.435 0.491 0.926 156 AS,MVP-6
    2014 30 62 272 220 32 56 16 0 6 23 1 1 47 49 0.255 0.390 0.409 0.799 125
    2015 31 158 695 545 95 171 33 2 29 80 11 3 143 135 0.314 0.459 0.541 1.000 174 MVP-3
    2016 32 158 677 556 101 181 34 2 29 97 8 1 108 120 0.326 0.434 0.550 0.985 160 MVP-7
    2017 33 162 707 559 106 179 34 1 36 100 5 1 134 83 0.320 0.454 0.578 1.032 167 AS,MVP-2
    Totals 1430 6141 5060 863 1586 344 17 257 830 72 29 996 1087 0.313 0.428 0.541 0.969
    Robinson
    Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ Awards
    1956 20 152 667 572 122 166 27 6 38 83 8 4 64 95 0.290 0.379 0.558 0.936 143 AS,MVP-7,RoY-1
    1957 21 150 677 611 97 197 29 5 29 75 10 2 44 92 0.322 0.376 0.529 0.905 135 AS,MVP-9
    1958 22 148 623 554 90 149 25 6 31 83 10 1 62 80 0.269 0.350 0.504 0.854 118 MVP-19,GG
    1959 23 146 626 540 106 168 31 4 36 125 18 8 69 93 0.311 0.391 0.583 0.975 153 AS,AS,MVP-9
    1960 24 139 562 464 86 138 33 6 31 83 13 6 82 67 0.297 0.407 0.595 1.002 169 MVP-20
    1961 25 153 635 545 117 176 32 7 37 124 22 3 71 64 0.323 0.404 0.611 1.015 164 AS,AS,MVP-1
    1962 26 162 701 609 134 208 51 2 39 136 18 9 76 62 0.342 0.421 0.624 1.045 172 AS,MVP-4
    1963 27 140 581 482 79 125 19 3 21 91 26 10 81 69 0.259 0.379 0.442 0.821 133
    1964 28 156 662 568 103 174 38 6 29 96 23 5 79 67 0.306 0.396 0.548 0.943 160 MVP-4
    1965 29 156 674 582 109 172 33 5 33 113 13 9 70 100 0.296 0.386 0.540 0.925 151 AS,MVP-18
    Totals 1502 6408 5527 1043 1673 318 50 324 1009 161 57 698 789 0.303 0.389 0.554 0.943 150

    I added an 11th season for Votto as the first one was just a September callup.

    Robinson was a supremely gifted athlete, so we'll leave defense out of it for the moment. He had the edge in speed certainly and HR power. Votto's edge comes in his OBP. He lead the league in OBP 6 times during this time frame, and once lead the league in walks even though he only played in 111 games.

    I don't know how much the dimensions of Crosley Field played into Robinson's 50 triples, but his 161 SB's tell me ha had some speed to go with his incredible HR power.

    They each had 6 top 10 MVP Votes and both one once. Robinson tacked on a second MVP after he was traded. Robinson was ROY, Votto finished 2nd for that award. Each won a GG.

    I could have done this year for year, 12 each as this season has not yet finished. But the comp is valid as these are the two greatest hitters in Reds history, Robinson 1, Votto 2. Votto being the greatest in my 51 years on earth. So I only wanted to include a comparison of their careers in the Reds organization.

    Joey Votto has 4 more guaranteed years after this one, and while his rate stats likely will decline, his counting stats will only increase, and he's probably going to lead the league in OBP at least one more time. He's already looking better. On may 22, Votto was hitting .215 .325 .343 .668. He's now up to .260 .356 .407 .763. It sure seems like he can get that OPS up over .800 by the end of the year. if this season ends like that, with four more averaging .800 OPS, then yes, I believe he'll be in the HOF.
    Last edited by TRF; 06-25-2019 at 04:43 PM.
    There is nothing you keep there is only your reflection.

    "There was like a softness to it, a glow to it. I felt... I felt warm."

    -- Joseph Daniel Votto 7/10/2017

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  13. #144
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    See, that's the thing I was getting at. Back when the trade was made, nobody realized how much the astrodome took away from Morgan's stats. He wasn't special, and just about all Reds fans hated the trade when it went down.

    This trade would never have looked so great had the Reds not accidentally acquired Lee May's replacement in 1971 by obtaining George Foster. Because prior to Foster being inserted in the lineup, this trade looked like a wash. Once Foster got inserted and the Reds started running roughshod over everyone, it became a lot clearer how valuable Billingham and Geronomo were. Of course it became a lot clearer how valuable Morgan was too as he then proceeded to put up numbers we never saw before.
    This history needs a bit of correction. As I was already a Reds fan of almost twenty years when these events occurred, I'll offer another version. I'd say Reds fans were more puzzled by the trade at the time it went off than anything else. The one thing that was clear about it was that moving Lee May made it possible to move Perez to first and Menke then gave us a decent fielding 3b. If Reds fans had an objection to the trade, it turned on the fact that Lee May was immensely popular and was just coming off a monster year, 147 OPS+. Helms had just been an All Star, IIRC, and had a batting average--and remember this was the day when BA was the stat par excellence--almost identical to Morgan's : .258 to .256. I'd say the "book" on Morgan was that he was immensely talented but hadn't really realized all of his potential yet in Houston. Geronimo had, at this point, done nothing yet in the majors and Billingham was coming off a bad season, 10-16--and remember again the importance of won-lost at the time. But it was clear very early--way before George Foster produced anything for the Reds, which was not really till 1975--that the trade was a huge victory for the Reds, mostly because Morgan was outstanding from the get-go, with, I think, an .857 the first year. And after a year of Menke at 3b,the Reds slid Rose over to 3rd, and the rest is well known.

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  15. #145
    Making A Pass By GABP OhioRiverBarge's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    TRF’s post is hard to refute.

    Add in that Votto is the darling of the stat geek crowd, and a new generation of writers (in 10 years, about when Votto will be up, boomers will have had relinquished their reigns on the HOF vote) will likely give Votto a nod.

    If there are any warranted intangibles in HOF voting, I think what Votto symbolizes to the new writers is just as important as being on a perennial contending team.
    "In our sundown perambulations of late through the outer parts of Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing 'base,' a certain game of ball. We wish such sights were more common among us...The game of ball is glorious..." -Walt Whitman, 1846

  16. #146
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Actually, Rose didn't take over at 3B until 1975.

    1972: Denis Menke
    1973: Denis Menke & Dan Driessen (Menke's bat turned into a wet noodle)
    1974: Dan Driessen (hands of stone and a glove of iron at 3B, but became a good defensive 1B)
    1975: John Vukovich & Pete Rose (Vuk brought in to play defense and bat 8th, but couldn't hit enough to do even that)
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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  18. #147
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    Actually, Rose didn't take over at 3B until 1975.

    1972: Denis Menke
    1973: Denis Menke & Dan Driessen (Menke's bat turned into a wet noodle)
    1974: Dan Driessen (hands of stone and a glove of iron at 3B, but became a good defensive 1B)
    1975: John Vukovich & Pete Rose (Vuk brought in to play defense and bat 8th, but couldn't hit enough to do even that)
    Thanks, Klu. Should have checked that.

  19. #148
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    This history needs a bit of correction. As I was already a Reds fan of almost twenty years when these events occurred, I'll offer another version. I'd say Reds fans were more puzzled by the trade at the time it went off than anything else. The one thing that was clear about it was that moving Lee May made it possible to move Perez to first and Menke then gave us a decent fielding 3b. If Reds fans had an objection to the trade, it turned on the fact that Lee May was immensely popular and was just coming off a monster year, 147 OPS+. Helms had just been an All Star, IIRC, and had a batting average--and remember this was the day when BA was the stat par excellence--almost identical to Morgan's : .258 to .256. I'd say the "book" on Morgan was that he was immensely talented but hadn't really realized all of his potential yet in Houston. Geronimo had, at this point, done nothing yet in the majors and Billingham was coming off a bad season, 10-16--and remember again the importance of won-lost at the time. But it was clear very early--way before George Foster produced anything for the Reds, which was not really till 1975--that the trade was a huge victory for the Reds, mostly because Morgan was outstanding from the get-go, with, I think, an .857 the first year. And after a year of Menke at 3b,the Reds slid Rose over to 3rd, and the rest is well known.
    You're memory is faulty. Factually Menke was acquired for the 72 season and Rose didn't move to 3rd until a couple months into the 75 season. Menke was starting 3rd baseman in 73 when we lost to Mets in playoffs. And I believe Driessen played 3rd base a lot before the Rose move.

  20. #149
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Menke was out of baseball by the middle of 1974. He actually turned out to be a pretty good hitting coach

  21. #150
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    Re: Votto - HOF?



    # of runners on base, # of rbi in parenthesis and ratio is how often they knock in a baserunner

    Seems very outlier for Votto...and Dietrich


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