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Thread: Votto - HOF?

  1. #16
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I think he’ll get in eventually the way HOF voting is trending. B-R’s HOF monitor has him on the outside looking in unless he has another like top 3 MVP vote getting season, which I don’t think is going to happen.

    He needs to keep the career BA above .300 though to not lose some points towards his case I think. Every small thing is probably going to have to go in his favor at this point. Also yeah, it definitely doesn’t help the Reds sucked so bad most of his career.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Anybody questioning Tony Perez's HOF qualifications is full of crap. From 1967 through 1980(his full seasons with at least 500 at bats, the man averaged 98 RBI a season. That's 14 straight years and he averaged 98 RBI a season. To this day, I'd take Perez' clutch hitting over Votto's base on balls career any day of the week.

    And, before you get on me for dissing Votto, he will get in the HOF easily and deservedly. But he's no Doggy.

  4. #18
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Votto is a Hall of Famer.

    He has a cult following amongst the new-age media. (That’s a good thing)

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  6. #19
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhioRiverBarge View Post
    So if Votto happened to be on the BRM, he’d be HOF worthy? And if Perez happened to play for the Indians or Cardinals those years instead, he wouldn’t be HOF worthy?
    Perhaps similar to a “Rizzuto effect”, where playing for a certain team in a particular era might give a final push for induction.
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  7. #20
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Anybody questioning Tony Perez's HOF qualifications is full of crap. From 1967 through 1980(his full seasons with at least 500 at bats, the man averaged 98 RBI a season. That's 14 straight years and he averaged 98 RBI a season. To this day, I'd take Perez' clutch hitting over Votto's base on balls career any day of the week.

    And, before you get on me for dissing Votto, he will get in the HOF easily and deservedly. But he's no Doggy.
    You’re right, he’s twice the hitter Perez ever was.

    And no, Perez wouldn’t have made the Hall of Fame if he didn’t play for the BRM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    When it comes to crow, I'd like nothing more than to eat Dick's all season long and into the postseason.

  8. #21
    Making A Pass By GABP OhioRiverBarge's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Nobody said Perez shouldn’t be in the HOF, though a couple said it was partly because he was on a good team.
    "In our sundown perambulations of late through the outer parts of Brooklyn, we have observed several parties of youngsters playing 'base,' a certain game of ball. We wish such sights were more common among us...The game of ball is glorious..." -Walt Whitman, 1846

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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    You’re right, he’s twice the hitter Perez ever was.

    And no, Perez wouldn’t have made the Hall of Fame if he didn’t play for the BRM.
    The following is top 18 RBI leaders in baseball history when Perez retired. Prior to the "super live ball era" and prior to when eras of 4.50 were considered average. Can you pick out the one who didn't make the HOF? I can't either.

    If you fill in the players as of today Perez would be 32nd. And the only players not in the HOF would be the ones left out due to steroids or they aren't eligible yet. So get out of here with that crap that he was only inducted because he played on the BRM.
    Aaron
    Ruth
    Gehrig
    Musial
    Cobb
    Foxx
    Mays
    Anson
    Ott
    Yastremski
    Al Simmons
    Frank Robinson
    Wagner
    Reggie Jackson
    TONY PEREZ
    Ernie Banks
    Goose Goslin
    Lajoie

    If anything, Perez was overshadowed by playing on the BRM. He was part of murderers row that include Bench and May/Foster plus Morgan and Rose also sucking up all the press. If Perez had played with any other team, he would've gone into the hall a hell of lot sooner.
    Last edited by foster15; 06-24-2019 at 01:30 AM.

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    RiverfrontRed (06-24-2019)

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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    The Adam Dunn discussions will forever be a stain on RZ. You are dead right with what you said above.

    As for Votto, up until this yr I thought he'd get in comfortably. I didn't foresee his skills dropping off this abruptly. His story hasn't been written yet. Let's see how many more yrs he plays and what his numbers look like. As of today my best guess is he'll squeak in but it won't be easy.
    See, I don't buy that someone can play themselves out of the HOF. If they put together was would be an HOF career and then hang around as a fill in below average player for a long time, that shouldn't and I don't think is, held against them. I believe if Votto would've retired prior to this season, he's a shoe-in HOFer and if that's the case, he is still one no matter what happens the rest of his career.

    BTW, regarding Dunn, on the MLB board, I had some idiot try to tell me that Dunn was a much better player than George Foster. That's almost as absurd as calling him a HOFer.

  13. #24
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Yes and i don’t think it should be close.

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    Ron Madden (06-25-2019)

  15. #25
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I don’t know. I mean, he’s no Harold Baines.
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  17. #26
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Votto’s slow starts work against him. He’s never in the buzz for “he’s on a pace ...” and “potential MVP season ...” He slowly climbs up in the second half, mostly unnoticed.

    Can you imagine Votto with the BRM hitting in front of him?

  18. #27
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Anybody questioning Tony Perez's HOF qualifications is full of crap. From 1967 through 1980(his full seasons with at least 500 at bats, the man averaged 98 RBI a season. That's 14 straight years and he averaged 98 RBI a season. To this day, I'd take Perez' clutch hitting over Votto's base on balls career any day of the week.

    And, before you get on me for dissing Votto, he will get in the HOF easily and deservedly. But he's no Doggy.
    Take a minute to think about who Perez had batting in front of him, then compare that to the guys batting in front of Votto.

    Career RISP
    Perez: .284/.364/.470
    Votto: .333/.486/.581

    So yeah, Votto has OPS'd 200 points higher than Perez in those situations. Votto is substantially better with 2 outs/RISP too.

    If you plug Votto in the Big Red Machine lineup instead of Perez, they'd have been even better.
    Last edited by Coopdaddy67; 06-24-2019 at 07:48 AM.

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  20. #28
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Anybody questioning Tony Perez's HOF qualifications is full of crap. From 1967 through 1980(his full seasons with at least 500 at bats, the man averaged 98 RBI a season. That's 14 straight years and he averaged 98 RBI a season. To this day, I'd take Perez' clutch hitting over Votto's base on balls career any day of the week.

    And, before you get on me for dissing Votto, he will get in the HOF easily and deservedly. But he's no Doggy.
    RBI is the worst metric to determine player worth, and is a stat of opportunity. By the way, Mickey Mantle only had100+ RBI's four times. I guess he sucked.

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  22. #29
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Tony Perez is maybe my favorite Reds player of all time. He is the only member of the BRM of whom I have never heard any other member of the Reds fail to praise in all respects-just a great ballplayer and a terrific person.
    Doggie was also a borderline HOF candidate. Yes, he had a lot of RBI, but he also had a lot of table setters batting in front of him, including Rose and Morgan, for much of his career. His career line of .279/.341/.463 is good but not overwhelming.
    Perez had 54 career WAR; the average first baseman in the HOF had 66.8. Perez's 7 year peak WAR was 36.5. The average first baseman in the HOF had a seven year peak WAR of 42.7. Perez's JAWS score is 45.3, again lower than the 54.8 of the average member of the HOF who was a first baseman. By those numbers Perez is the 28th greatest first baseman ever, ahead of Orlando Cepeda and a couple of other first basemen who made the HOF, but also behind some other first basemen who are not in the HOF.
    I realize that Perez is praised for his clutch hitting, and he hit the most important HR in Reds history with his game seven moon shot in the 1975 World Series, but in 189 plate appearances, 172 at bats, Perez had a career post season line of .238/.192/378.
    Votto by the way ranks 17th all time among first basemen with 59.0 WAR, a 46.0 seven year peak WAR, and 52.5 JAWS.
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  24. #30
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    A big part of Tony Perez' legacy was his leadership on a historically great team and that isn't measured by stats. That helped him immensely in garnering votes for the Hall


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