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Thread: Votto - HOF?

  1. #31
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    RBI is the worst metric to determine player worth, and is a stat of opportunity. By the way, Mickey Mantle only had100+ RBI's four times. I guess he sucked.
    I don't say this as in any way a criticism of Votto, but is the walk also a "stat of opportunity"--the opportunity of the other team to avoid damage by someone like Votto when he's playing on what have been some really bad teams?

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  3. #32
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinsm View Post
    The one intriguing take from this year's ballot... It's all about how you finish your career.

    Player A through his age 34 season:
    1629 G - 6836 PA - 1017 R - 1675 H - 327 HR - 1099 RBI - 82 SB - 1057 BB - 1136 K - .296 BA - .409 OBP - .545 SLG - 145 OPS+
    (bRef: 48.6 oWAR and -8.1 dWAR)
    5 All-Star Games, 5 times finished in top 10 MVP voting over that span (4 x in top 5)

    Player B through age his 34 season:
    1575 G - 6764 PA - 930 R - 1729 H - 269 HR - 897 RBI - 74 SB - 1104 BB - 1188 K - .311 BA - .427 OBP - .530 SLG - 155 OPS+
    (bRef: 54.4 oWAR and -4.7 dWAR)
    6 All-Star Games, 6 times finished in top 10 MVP voting over that span (3 x in top 5 including 1 win)

    Notes:
    Player A and Player B both played for just 1 team during that span.
    Player A's team made it to the playoffs 4 times over that span and he played in 34 total playoff games over that span.
    Player B's team made it to the playoffs 3 times over that span and he played in 9 total playoff games over that span.

    Player A competed against some of the most PED infested players of all-time, Player B has played during advanced testing.

    Player B is better than A over that span, but it's not by a huge margin.

    Player A went on to play in just 250 more big league games scattered over 3 seasons, though he did manage to earn another ASG appearance and his one and only WS Ring over those 3 seasons. Player B is still playing and is entering his age 35 season.

    Player A is Lance Berkman, who just failed to get 2% of the vote in his first year as eligible for induction, Player B is Joey Votto.
    Rehash from --> http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...nduction-class

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  5. #33
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I don't say this as in any way a criticism of Votto, but is the walk also a "stat of opportunity"--the opportunity of the other team to avoid damage by someone like Votto when he's playing on what have been some really bad teams?
    A player has control over whether he walks or not. A bad hitter will swing at pitches out of the strike zone. A good hitter will take a walk when he can. But, a hitter can get at most one RBI if there is no one on base.

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  7. #34
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I don't say this as in any way a criticism of Votto, but is the walk also a "stat of opportunity"--the opportunity of the other team to avoid damage by someone like Votto when he's playing on what have been some really bad teams?
    Okay, take away the IBB #s. 88% of the time, Votto had to earn a BB.

    Pitchers went in to an AB expanding the zone, hoping Votto would get himself out or at least give them a favorable count by swinging at balls. When Votto refused to give in, he'd take his base. A lot of guys in baseball are unable to do that, which is why they'll never be as good as Votto has been over his career.

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    Ron Madden (06-25-2019)

  9. #35
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    The following is top 18 RBI leaders in baseball history when Perez retired. Prior to the "super live ball era" and prior to when eras of 4.50 were considered average. Can you pick out the one who didn't make the HOF? I can't either.

    If you fill in the players as of today Perez would be 32nd. And the only players not in the HOF would be the ones left out due to steroids or they aren't eligible yet. So get out of here with that crap that he was only inducted because he played on the BRM.
    Aaron
    Ruth
    Gehrig
    Musial
    Cobb
    Foxx
    Mays
    Anson
    Ott
    Yastremski
    Al Simmons
    Frank Robinson
    Wagner
    Reggie Jackson
    TONY PEREZ
    Ernie Banks
    Goose Goslin
    Lajoie

    If anything, Perez was overshadowed by playing on the BRM. He was part of murderers row that include Bench and May/Foster plus Morgan and Rose also sucking up all the press. If Perez had played with any other team, he would've gone into the hall a hell of lot sooner.

    If Perez had played for most other teams, he likely would have been barely remembered. The RBI's wouldn't have been there, not his leadership qualities remembered or considered important.

  10. #36
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    If Perez had played for most other teams, he likely would have been barely remembered. The RBI's wouldn't have been there, not his leadership qualities remembered or considered important.
    Eh, dude had nearly 2800 hits and 379 home runs in the 70s. That’s remembered no matter what team you play for.

    I don’t see a need to disparage a great player to prop up another.

    Perez and Votto are both all time great first basemen. Full stop.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

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  12. #37
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I'd say he's a lock for HOF. He has an MVP, multiple all-star selections, and out-of-this-world sabermetrics. The season he lost out on the MVP to Stanton was simply amazing. And...oh yea...Harold Baines.

  13. #38
    Just a Fan RiverfrontRed's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I think a much closer comp than Perez would be Larkin. In the end, Votto will compare very favorably to Larkin in many career numbers, especially hits.

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    Hoosier Red (07-01-2019)

  15. #39
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    That Berkman/Votto numbers arenít great for Votto

  16. #40
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    I think he pretty easily gets into THE HOF. There is clear separation between himself and Miggy compared to the rest of the position group between 2007-2019.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  18. #41
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    That Berkman/Votto numbers aren’t great for Votto
    The fact that Lance Berkman didn't get more HOF support is a crime. For about eight years, he was just about the most dangerous hitter in the NL not named Albert Pujols.
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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    Ron Madden (06-25-2019)

  20. #42
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    A player has control over whether he walks or not. A bad hitter will swing at pitches out of the strike zone. A good hitter will take a walk when he can. But, a hitter can get at most one RBI if there is no one on base.
    Am I missing something? Wasn't this question asked in response to "the RBI is a stat of opportunity"? Well, a player has control over whether he drives in a run too same way as taking a walk.

  21. #43
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Am I missing something? Wasn't this question asked in response to "the RBI is a stat of opportunity"? Well, a player has control over whether he drives in a run too same way as taking a walk.

    Not if there’s no runners on base to drive in

  22. #44
    Just a Fan RiverfrontRed's Avatar
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    Not if there’s no runners on base to drive in
    Meh... over the course of a 162-game schedule, a middle of the order batter is going to get ample opportunity to drive runs in. IMO, RBIs are still a valid statistic to determine clutch hitting.

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  24. #45
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    Re: Votto - HOF?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverfrontRed View Post
    Meh... over the course of a 162-game schedule, a middle of the order batter is going to get ample opportunity to drive runs in. IMO, RBIs are still a valid statistic to determine clutch hitting.
    And you would be wrong. Clearly some hitters have more or less opportunities that isn't even debatable.

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