Willie Wilson, Willie McGee, Ron Leflore, Omar Moreno, and our own Dave Collins are just a few of the prolific base stealers from that era off the top of my head.Originally Posted by Ironman92
Willie Wilson, Willie McGee, Ron Leflore, Omar Moreno, and our own Dave Collins are just a few of the prolific base stealers from that era off the top of my head.
For most players, that's a really good point. But Rickey can nearly compete with Pete on that front. He had nearly 2k PA at 40+.
But let's roll with it. Pete's last really solid season was at age 38. So let's look at both players through age 38.
Rickey still comes out ahead in regards to wRC+.Code:# Name G PA HR R RBI SB BB% K% ISO BABIP AVG OBP SLG wOBA wRC+ BsR Off Def WAR 1 Rickey Henderson 2460 10860 252 1913 921 1231 16.3% 11.7% .146 .308 .286 .406 .431 .380 138 128.6 620.9 -0.1 100.9 2 Pete Rose 2668 12182 154 1747 1013 155 9.7% 7.6% .121 .329 .312 .381 .432 .366 128 -10.4 377.9 -55.3 79.0
What if we looked at the best batting seasons? Here's their best seasons in descending order by batting runs. Pete never had a season with the bat close to Rickey's MVP campaign in 1990.
If you look for the best 5 year stretch, Rickey's best stretch (age 30-34, 186.5 Bat) beats Pete's best stretch (age 27-31, 154.3). For 7 years, Rickey (25-31n 240.1) beats Pete again (27-33, 206.9). Extend it to 10, well, Rickey (25-34, 336.3) wins again (26-35, 295.3). In short, there's no stretch of any length of consecutive seasons during which Pete Rose was the more productive batter.Code:Rk Player Season Team Age Bat 1 Rickey Henderson 1990 Athletics 31 60.7 2 Rickey Henderson 1985 Yankees 26 46.6 3 Pete Rose 1969 Reds 28 44.7 4 Rickey Henderson 1993 2 Teams 34 38.6 5 Pete Rose 1976 Reds 35 37.3 6 Pete Rose 1968 Reds 27 34.5 7 Pete Rose 1973 Reds 32 34.4 8 Pete Rose 1975 Reds 34 33.5 9 Rickey Henderson 1992 Athletics 33 32.8 10 Rickey Henderson 1984 Athletics 25 32.0 11 Rickey Henderson 1980 Athletics 21 30.9
If you're talking peak, I'm taking Rickey. If you're talking career, I'm taking Rickey.
If you want to define the question in such a way that it's not about run production but about something else so that Pete can win, be my guest. I'll take the guy who produced more runs.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
Dumbest comment EVER.
You'll be hard pressed to find anyone knowledgeable about baseball who didn't have Pete Rose penciled in as a first ballot hall of famer when retired. And you know what else, if Pete had retired around 1976, he still would've been first ballot. He's not a first ballot nor HOFer for one reason and that one reason has nothing to do with the way he played or the skills he possessed.
As for comparing him to Rickey. Before you show me any of the easily accessible stats, you're going to have to do a lot more homework. You're going to have to do some detailed pro-rating on playing a whole career in the National League from 1963 through 1985 vs the mainly the American league from 1979 through 2003. You see, there's a reason the American league offense has outpaced the National league in comparison and baseball itself during those two time periods and none of those reasons is because the American League had better offensive players. I'll start by giving you 3. Ballparks, strike zones and designated hitters.
Last edited by foster15; 07-07-2019 at 12:24 AM.
Ironman92 (07-07-2019),Old school 1983 (07-07-2019)
Well... now we know the real reason Pete isn't in the HOF.
This isn't a fair comparison really. Look at career WAR between the two.
Guys in the Pete Rose range include Tom Glavine, Jeff Bagwell, Brooks Robinson and Curt Schilling. Great players, absolutely. Rose, without the scandal, is a no-doubt Hall of Famer.
Guys in the Rickey Henderson range are legends like Alex Rodriguez, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle and Tom Seaver. Legends of the game.
Rickey Henderson is top 20 in WAR of every baseball player ever. Not a fair comparison.
Hard to compare, but I'd probably take Rickey for the same reasons I'd take Joe Morgan over Rose during their prime years.
Still, I think a lot of people on here were probably kids when Rose came back to town as an old man looping singles over the SS head and they think they saw Pete Rose play and have a sense of the kind of player he was. If you didn't see Pete Rose play in the late 60s and for about the first half od the 70s, the guy you remember watching isn't what Pete Rose was for the bulk of his career. The guy was a dominant force who impacted every game he played. To this day, if some one asked me who I'd want up there late in a tie game with a runner on second base, my answer would be Pete Rose. He wasn't an RBI guy, but if the game is on the line, he is easily the single player that I ever saw who I'd want at the plate.
The record books are filled with Pete Rose, but they don't really do justice to how he impacted games and the guy who hung around to accumulate those records was a shadow of the player whose career put him in the position to hang around in the first place. Judging Rose by how he performed in the 80s would be like some kid just seeing Joey Votto today and drawing a conclusion that he was just some no power guy who walked all the time.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
Ironman92 (07-07-2019),Old school 1983 (07-07-2019),Tracy Jones (07-07-2019),wlf WV (07-09-2019)
Suddenly there's something wrong with hitting gobs of singles? It certainly beats gobs of strikeouts and a few homeruns here and there.. But hey, that's my opinion. Baseball today is full of guys who rarely ever just hit singles day in, day out and instead strike out over and over and over, but by golly hit the occasional homerun waaaay out into the river which counts for exactly the same as the homerun that barely clears the fence..and the same as the guy who walks with bases loaded for that matter..
Should this turn into a conversation on what makes a hitter good or great?
IMO the "Three true outcomes" are ruining the game. A hitter should be trying to:
1. Get on base
2. Advance the runner
3. Drive in a run
4. Wear out the pitcher.
Even a punch and judy hitter can do these.
Unfortunately, the focus of modern hitting has led to a decline in sacrifice hits and the hit and run.
Old school 1983 (07-07-2019)
I think this is a fair question. The 90's was obviously the steroid era so you need to take that into consideration which I see a number of you have. Many of the things that make Pete Rose an all-time great falls out of the strictly "hitter" classification. Rose played so hard and yet was rarely hurt. His durability was unmatched. He inspired his team like no one else with enthusiasm and leading by example. Henderson famously forgot that Olerud was even on his team. Another thing for Rose was his willingness to move to where he was needed on the field to help the team win- second to outfield to third....Rose was so consistent in hammering out singles and doubles and the 200+ hits a year were great. So maybe Henderson was a better hitter but I don't think its a huge gap like some here suggest. Jeez between this and the Joey Votto for HoF thread I'm starting to wonder if there's an anti-Reds bias on the Reds board.
Ironman92 (07-07-2019),Old school 1983 (07-07-2019)
Did you know that Sandy Koufax was the 89th greatest pitcher in history? Well, according to your logic he was.
Also, Pete Rose is greater than non-legends Joltin Joe DiMaggio and Johnny Bench. Again, according to your logic.
Last edited by foster15; 07-07-2019 at 12:29 PM.
Ironman92 (07-07-2019)
Pete had 3000 hits at age 36...had enough hits for HOF at 35
Better hitter is the thread topic. I feel that Rickey’s 6,000,000 stolen bases might up his war a touch
Old school 1983 (07-07-2019)
IMO. Pete is the better hitter. Rickey could impact the game in more ways.
cumberlandreds (07-08-2019)
Thread is starting to deliver
As an aside and stolen from twitter: after today Rose is not even the best Rose from Cincinnati.
What would you say.....ya do here?
Roy Tucker (07-08-2019)
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