M2 (11-11-2019),Old school 1983 (11-11-2019),RedsBaron (11-12-2019)
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Old school 1983 (11-11-2019),REDREAD (11-12-2019)
Watched a lot of Murphy on TBS back in the day. You never ever threw him the same pitch twice. The second one would be a rocket somewhere.
I have his autograph so I'm a bit selfish in wanting him to get in. But yeah, his peak was great but everything else, not so much.
Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan (Pale Blue Dot)
How long does a "prime" have to last to get in the Hall? 6 years was certainly enough for Sandy Koufax. The difference is he retired in his prime while the others took the long downhill fall. I'd argue that even though their skills diminished after their prime, they were much more productive than Koufax was sitting in his living room.
REDREAD (11-12-2019)
These are the questions I used to love arguing about. But now, who really cares about the Hall of Fame? Harold Baines is in and Pete Rose is out. So really, who cares about the HOF anymore?
cincinnati chili (11-23-2019),REDREAD (11-12-2019)
Murphy's Peak vs Sandy's Peak
Code:1982-1987 PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Pedro Guerrero .200 .915 .715 3185 2 Mike Schmidt .195 .929 .734 3847 3 Jack Clark .171 .891 .720 2851 4 Darryl Strawberry .168 .890 .722 2747 5 Dale Murphy .152 .913 .762 4173 6 Tony Gwynn .114 .836 .721 3270 7 Leon Durham .111 .853 .742 3222 8 Tim Raines .108 .846 .737 4125 9 Keith Hernandez .099 .830 .731 3994 10 Bob Horner .088 .843 .755 2261
Sandy also was in three World Series in his peakCode:1962-1966 ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria RSAA RSAA ERA-LG IP 1 Sandy Koufax 194 1.27 1377 2 Juan Marichal 172 1.07 1455 3 Bob Gibson 131 0.87 1355 4 Jim Maloney 114 0.97 1061 5 Don Drysdale 84 0.49 1532 6 Larry Jackson 68 0.46 1337 7 Chris Short 64 0.51 1130 8 Bob Friend 55 0.47 1079 9 Dick Ellsworth 18 0.12 1248 10 Ken Johnson 10 0.09 1086.1
M2 (11-11-2019),Old school 1983 (11-11-2019),RedsBaron (11-12-2019)
And I'm not arguing for Murphy to go in and I'm certainly not arguing that Koufax should be out. I'm just asking how you quantify peaks good enough to go in? I've seen people here argue that Rose shouldn't be in because his overall numbers aren't that great. But geez, if a player gives you 15 years of hall of fame production and hangs around another 9 that are pedestrian, how can you use those 9 years in your evaluation? Just because a player loves the game so much that he's willing to hang around and be no better than average should never be held against him. There's always room on rosters for mediocre players and the fact someone like Rose was willing to be that after a sparkling prime should be another argument for inclusion not against. Obviously Rose is not out of HOF because of this, just pisses me off when someone uses this to down play a shoe-in hall of fame career.
Also, while Koufax had a lot to do with them being in the WS, being in the World series 3 times in your prime is not an argument by itself to get you in. Vida Blue was too. Marichal only pitched in one world series and that was right before his prime but I'd argue that it wasn't his fault that they never got in during his prime.
Last edited by foster15; 11-11-2019 at 04:51 PM.
REDREAD (11-12-2019)
WTH, I'm not the one who started with the 6 year peak argument. What I'm saying is that you can't always use the full body of work to argue against HOF worthiness. And Pete Rose with his longevity is a good example. And if you don't like it, go root for the Astros. I also used Vida Blue and Marichal, got a problem with that?
You used the world series argument not me. And Marichal would never get picked as a more worthy HOFer than Koufax even if Sandy didn't pitch in a World Series. You know why? Because while Sandy only had 5 really great seasons, they were greater seasons than just about any other pitcher in MLB history. So, as my point was and still is, even after you tried to play devil's advocate and did a very poor job of it, you can't look at longevity and disregard someone and you can't look at lack of longevity and disregard somebody. Everyone's circumstance is different and a HOFer 99 percent of the time stands out as a HOFer. Koufax, Marichal and yes, even Pete Rose, had playing careers that made it obvious they were going into the HOF. No need to dissect. Once you feel the need of dissecting, you might as well give it up, that player does not belong in the HOF. And yes, lately, many have been added that dilute the greatness the HOF once was.
Last edited by foster15; 11-11-2019 at 05:48 PM.
You used the world series argument not me. And Marichal would never get picked as a more worthy HOFer than Koufax even if Sandy didn't pitch in a World Series. You know why? Because while Sandy only had 5 really great seasons, they were greater seasons than just about any other pitcher in MLB history. So, as my point was and still is, even after you tried to play devil's advocate and did a very poor job of it, you can't look at longevity and disregard someone and you can't look at lack of longevity and disregard somebody. Everyone's circumstance is different and a HOFer 99 percent of the time stands out as a HOFer. Koufax, Marichal and yes, even Pete Rose, had playing careers that made it obvious they were going into the HOF. No need to dissect. Once you start dissecting, you might as well give it up, that player does not belong in the HOF. And yes, lately, many have been added that dilute the greatness the HOF once was.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
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