Ohh, feeling good right now. Great movie, good contract.
Ohh, feeling good right now. Great movie, good contract.
That is a big chunk of change for 3 years. If Graves turns out to be the starter that a lot of people in here think he will be, then we got a brillant signing. If he turns out not to be a starter or and average starter, then we have a huge problem. I was very surprised that it was $5M for the first year.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
It's the two trade clauses that worry me.
Limited no trade AND more money if he IS traded.
If he tanks as a starter, the Reds are in big trouble.
PSR
great deal. I was almost right on.
Why? If he tanks as a starter, you have an above average closer. Besides, he has good stuff and the transition went fine at the close of last year. Just can't say it, can ya? Good pitcher, good move. Try it, it was really easy.Originally posted by Raisor
It's the two trade clauses that worry me.
Limited no trade AND more money if he IS traded.
If he tanks as a starter, the Reds are in big trouble.
PSR
This I like. The Reds have just, in the past week, given pretty good money to STARTING PITCHERS. Seems like somebody is finally getting the idea as to where you build a win from.
Tho only thing I hate is the "Jimmy Haynes can walk if he is any good" deal that Bowden signed. I wish he had forked up a bit more cash and gotten a team option for 2004.
I love the move. I'm with FCB - damn the dollars. Its about time we payed some dough for the best young arm we have. I was worried, real worried actually that Graves wanted out. Obviously that's not so. I think this will have an effect in the clubhouse, too. Not every guy who is going to make a good size paycheck is going to get shipped out - this news made my day.
Big Red 75 - You and I feel the same way about Graves! Thank You!
* Good call, ORG, on the clubhouse issue. Now that Cincinnati has taken steps to at least compete, it looks like most of the malcontents (to borrow a member name) have already gone the other places.
* Note to self: never pi$$ off Jim Bowden. Players who happened to say something negative about the Red GM were shipped out to the Pirates and the Tigers. Both were happy when dealt; I wonder if they're as happy now, seeing the steps Bowden and co. have taken to compete?
* You've gotta think the Red clubhouse will be a pretty cool place to hang out now, what with LTC's given to Graves, Casey, Wilson, and others. All of them are reportedly fun to hang around with, work very hard at their craft, and care about the average fan and charity work. Wonder if the image of the Cincinnati player will improve?
* Think Junior is happy now that Cincinnati has antied up a few more bucks? Think that had anything to do with his desire to stay? (Nah. I don't buy that and I typed it.)
* Dunn and Kearns are probably playing Playstation 3 right now in the back of a pick-up truck, with rifles nearby, and fishing gear stowed in the back. 5 will get you ten that at least one of them has a can of Skoal handy.
* Can anyone make that noise when tapping their fingers against the top of a can of dip? In high school, that was the sign of a true ballplayer. (At least it was in my little redneck town.) Wonder how many Reds can do the same?
* Speaking of tobacco, wonder how many Reds smoke? I know Mark Grace does. Anyone know?
* Do all of these LTCs mean Cincinnati will again raise payroll in 2004? It looks likely, as not all of these guys will be able to be dealt.
* The Graves' deal the biggest risk the Reds have made in how long? Five years? Ten? A score?
* Why is a score twenty years and not one, seven, or three? What sport counts by twenties?
* Wouldn't it be nice if someone with enough money decided to buy Redszone lock, stock, and two smoking URLs? To Hell with the Reds, I need Redszone more!
* What, exactly, is enhanced mode on under the vB code, and, if I push it, will I then be truly enhanced? Will this mean that I become funnier and that all my split infinitives disapper? I so hope!
The Reds will be spending about 20% of the '03 payroll on starting pitching. How long has it been since that happened? Rijo, Browning & Jackson?This I like. The Reds have just, in the past week, given pretty good money to STARTING PITCHERS. Seems like somebody is finally getting the idea as to where you build a win from.
"People that frequent Internet forums resemble the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest!" - C. J. Cregg, The West Wing
The Reds didn't play this one safe and I couldn't be happier.
It's nice to see the organization make a big call. Moves like this, if they work out, are what helps you leapfrog over the competition.
That said, it doesn't really change the quality of the team on the field.
But hopefully we've got a frontline starter, a guy who you actually want to see take the ball in a big game, for the next three or four years.
Raisor, the NTC is extremely limited. From the DDN:
"And he has a limited no-trade clause in which he can nix a trade to four teams of his choosing."
So basically he can say I won't go to Montreal, the Devil Rays, KC, Detroit, or whatever four teams he really, really doesn't want to go to.
As far as I know, Bowden flatly refuses to give full NTC's, and thus you have situations like Casey where he has an option to void the contract if traded.
I like this move. The money is a little high for my taste, but Graves has been very solid and has a nice, smooth delivery (i.e. not very injury prone). I don't like the fact that he has what I feel is a pretty weak infield behind him, but still, I am glad he is staying a Red because unless Dempster finds the 2000 version of himself, I think Danny will be our best SP next year.
Not to hijack this thread, but according to Hal, the Reds are slightly over-budget right now and are trying to move Sully/White for prospects.
My thoughts exactly. Graves has started 4 games as a Red. He did well. I'm glad, but to offer up that kind of money to a kid who has 4 starts in his major league career, has an iffy record as a closer, and who only 2 years ago was complaining about everything from the management of the club to the fans, simply is not my cup of tea. It will, in fact, make it a certainty that we will have Danny Graves on our staff for the rest of his career--win or lose. I hate to say this guys, but a Moehler or Estes signing would have more sense than this. I'm just flabbergasted at this deal.Originally posted by Raisor
It's the two trade clauses that worry me.
Limited no trade AND more money if he IS traded.
If he tanks as a starter, the Reds are in big trouble.
PSR
Originally posted by BigRed75
Excellent signing. Contract seems pretty fair to me. Danny Graves will be far from an "average" starter. I guarentee Danny will be this team's ace.
Being the Reds' "ace" and being a legit major league "ace" is probably two different things.
Danny's got a LOT to prove now, and is going to have a ton of pressure on his shoulders.
PSR
If the Reds are slightly over budget now, then the 2003 payroll has to be in the $56 million range, not the $60 million cap being bantered around. Removing White or Sullivan would reduce the figure to $53 million. Trading both of them off for prospects would further reduce the total to about $50 million.
Here's how I arrived at my figures:
Griffey $8.5 million
Larkin $7.6 million
Casey $5.6 million
Graves $5 million
Boone $3.7 million
Dempster $3.25 million
White $3.1 million
Sullivan $2.8 million
Haynes $2.5 million
Williamson $1.6 million
Larue $1.25 million
Stinnett $1.1 million
Castro $0.8 million
Chen $0.8 million
Wilson $0.5 million
Guillen $0.5 million
One additional pitcher (Rijo?, Heredia?) at $0.5 million
Nine additional players averaging between $0.3-0.5 million apiece (Kearns, Dunn, Taylor, Guillen/Mateo, Larson, Branyan, Lopez/Dawkins, Reitsma, Riedling)
Reds' residual payment to cover the Dessens' contract $0.3 million
Payments to deferred pools for Larkin,Griffey plus reserves to cover potential contractual bonuses $2.5 million
Contingency to pay minor leaguers filling in for contract players on the DL or called up in September $1 million
The only way that the Reds could be pushing $60 million for 2003 is if the team is preparing to offer long-term contracts to Dunn, Kearns or both of them, laying out some extra scratch this coming season in return for concessions down the line. Might be in the offing -- we'll see. But if not, then the $60 million cap is a chimera, or else Jimbo is holding back a few million in case it's needed for the stretch run.
My best educated guess. The Reds plan to spend $55-56 million this opening season at GAB, but can bump up the figure just a shade, to $60 million tops, if attendance and the heat of competition warrants it.
I can't see the team moving both the White and Sullivan contracts this off-season, but probably one of them's a goner. White is the most likely to go, based on his 2002 performance and our stockpiling of southpaws like Chen, Heredia, Mercker and Anderson. But we also have a few candidates waiting in the wings to replace Sullivan (Riedling, Reitsma, Hudson, Pineda, et. al.), so he could be sacrificed at the altar first depending on which suitors come calling.
Even with the abrupt downward shift we've seen this winter in salaries for relievers, either White or Sullivan can be dealt, especially if one of them comes on like gangbusters this spring. Somehow, somewhere, a well-heeled team will have miscalculated its available talent only to belatedly realize it's a premium setup man short of contending.
Just hope it's not the Reds who are caught in that crunch. I don't really mind us being a feeder team for relievers or dealing from a position of strength to satisfy other more glaring needs. Shifting resources from the bullpen to the starting corps is a gamble, but it's a calculated gamble we're probably overdue in taking.
Count me in as one person who thinks this is the Reds best move this offseason. Graves is a great pitcher with 3 plus pitches. He has the stuff and low pitch counts to thrive as a starter, and his almost flawless delivery makes me believe that he will do just fine as a starter.
If he does produce like many of us believe he is capable of and crank out a 15-18 win season with a 3.00-3.50 era, he will be one of the better bargains in baseball. If he struggles as a starter and is moved back to the pen, he is still paid less than the top 1/3 of all the closers in the game.
Graves has a legit shot at producing at the level of a legit #1/#2 type of starter, and that is a bargain in today's market at an average of 6M per year. He is 29, and entering his prime, so i see nothing not to like about this deal.
"Haven't you ever loved something that much?"
Posting Permissions
|
Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please. |
