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Thread: Sean Casey rumored in 3 way trade discussion

  1. #61
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Guys, in case you are wondering, last season Jarvis was 4-8 with a 5.87 ERA. The league batted .304 against him. He has a career
    5.83 ERA..

    I know some are touting all the payroll flexiblity trading Casey would bring.. but what exactly are we going to spend it on?

    Based on the past, it's very unlikely the Reds will shop for free agents that would actually be impact players.. their MO is to just grab cheap, filler free agents..

    Well, maybe we could use that payroll flexiblity to trade for a young up and coming pitcher in 2005 that is hitting arbitration.. well, what do we have to trade for a Vasquez-like pitcher in 2004?
    The farm is pretty bare..

    I know you can make a strong arguement that in theory the freed up Casey money will lead to a brighter future, but the reality is that it might just be another step into Milwaukee-land and the goal of a 30 milllion dollar budget.

    I know Casey has been disappointing, but this trade has major disaster written all over it.. Until the Reds start actually spending some of their "flexiblity", it's going to be hard to sell the fans on trading Casey for a scrub.

    Remember, the 2005 budget is influenced by the 2004 attendence... (at least according to Allen).
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  3. #62
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    That's the bottom line right there. The Reds are NOT going to contend next year, therefore WMP HAS to play in every game possible. For WMP to play everyday, Casey has to go. It's that simple.
    I'm not sure that's the right path, Phil. I agree that chances are the Reds go nowhere next season, but I'd suggest that Smitherman needs to make it or break it and we have time with Pena. Heck, with our injury history, it's possible that Pena racks up 250+ PA even if Smitherman starts in LF.

    I agree with moving Casey. Heck, I agree with moving Casey for virtually nothing.

    The problem is that this "rumor" puts us in a position of dealing Casey for LESS than nothing (Kevin Jarvis) when there's supposedly a very productive Jason Kendall involved.

    Instead, if this rumor is to be believed, I'm keeping Kendall and moving Larue- who should actually have some value to a team desperately needing a decent Catcher.

    That's a bit of a net gain in payroll, but it's also a HUGE net gain in actual talent on this team.

    I'd suggest that there's more than one way to trade a Casey.

  4. #63
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    EEEEeeeeekkkk!!!!

    I've been pounding the drum for trading Casey for a while now, but this isn't at all what I had in mind. My motive for trading Casey is to get PayFlex this year. Miguel Bautista or Kelvim Escobar are there for the taking. Either would greatly improve the Reds' outlook for next year.

  5. #64
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Raisor, maybe for WMP to play everyday it's Jr. that has to go. There's options beyond moving Dunn to 1B is all I'm saying.

    REDREAD, look at what the White Sox dealt for Bart Colon or what the Phillies dealt for Kevin Millwood. The Reds can beat that, easy. What you need is the cash to take on that kind of contract.

    Steel, I agree that there's more than one way to trade a Casey and the Reds should scout around for their best deal. Yet the one thing I hope they avoid is not pulling the trigger on him and finding themselves in this exact same situation next year. As cringe-inducing as Jarvis is (and I'd be all for cutting him) that deal would get the Reds out from under Casey's deal two years early.

    Heeler, I'm thinking the trade market makes more sense than going the FA route. Livan Hernandez, Byung-Hyun Kim, Odalis Perez - guys like that. That's where the mid-range talent is and that's where shaving $2 million off the payroll by moving Casey might do you some good.
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  6. #65
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    I ask for more than the original deal. Steve Smitherman is not worth "making room" for. He's basically a 25 year old who tore up double a, then sucked in triple a and the majors. Big deal. Wily Mo Pena should get more playing time, but should still be a fourth outfielder for the time being.

    Kevin Jarvis is a Major League Nothing. He's below replacement level. The major league equivalent to your neighborhood crack dealer: the community is better off without him.

    Basically, the Reds would be paying $4.75 million to buyout Casey's contract.

    No thanks.

    Here's a better idea: Get a good right handed batting infielder that he can platoon with, and allow him to get some rest on occasion (yeah, yeah I know he had a better year against lefties... that's called a fluke). Bring in a batting coach that can help him get back his doubles stroke.

    Or look for a better deal.

    At least Casey gets on base.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  7. #66
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    10/31/03 Kris Benson, who missed the second half of the season with a shoulder issue, has completed a light throwing program and won't begin throwing again until December. Benson saw shoulder specialist Dr. Craig Morgan last week and was given a clean bill of health. He never did undergo surgery for his problem, which was just believed to be tendinitis.
    Benson comes with a lot of questions. I know McClendon has had issues with Benson. Is Benson really injured worse than this last report, since he hasn't pitched since 07/18/03? Could he have pitching well before the end of the year, but because of the issues between Benson/McClendon the Pirates kept him out? Did the Pirates keep him out because they were out of it anyway and hoped the rest would get him ready for next year? Anyone trading for him, I would hope would have all the updated physical history.

    Benson, who just turned 29, will be in the last year of his four year contract next year and will make $6.1M, but if he makes all of his incentives, he'll make $7.1M.

    This trade rumor makes more sense than the Jarvis rumor. If they want FeLo also, then I would expect a low minor leaguer to accompany Benson to the Reds.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  8. #67
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Steve Smitherman is not worth "making room" for. He's basically a 25 year old who tore up double a, then sucked in triple a and the majors. Big deal.
    I'm not looking to "make room" for Smitherman. I'm wanting to use the room created to see if he'll sink or swim. Either that, or deal the guy. I don't really care which.

    And I totally agree on not using Kevin Jarvis as a virtual buyout for Casey's deal. Ugh.

  9. #68
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cincinnati chili
    At least Casey gets on base.
    but way below the average 1B. i hear people comparing Casey and Hatteberg. people not understanding why Hatteberg is now a millionaire thanks to one Billy Beane. it hasn't come up in this thread, but it's an interesting comparision, especially considering price of production:
    Code:
    Player	Casey	Hatteberg
    AVG	291	253
    OBP	350	342
    SLG	408	383
    OPS	758	725
    M. SLG	432	427
    IsoD	059	089
    IsoP	117	130
    IOS	176	219
    P/PA	3.59	3.99
    RC/27	5.26	4.05
    MRC/27	5.32	5.10
    Hatteberg had an off year, and still has a noticably higher IsoD, IsoP, and IOS. when using Doubles Modified Slugging, Hatteberg has the bigger rise in his SLG because he hits more doubles. his RC/27 also go up much more than Casey's when using M. SLG.
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  10. #69
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    Jarvis???????????????????????

    If Casey has to be traded,
    do it at the trading deadline,
    after he has had an injury free
    opportunity to redeem himself,
    and we can get some prospects
    in return.

    Same with KGJ.

    The albatross contract, imo, is DG.
    Any kind of three way that reduces
    immediately the cost of that contract
    has to be considered seriously.

  11. #70
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
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    I'd be happy to get rid of Casey just to get rid of the bounce...
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  12. #71
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    I'd do either trade for these reasons:

    1. There may be no other team interested in Casey, and Pittsburgh is likely only interested in him as part of a salary swap. They'll move Kendall to SD somehow, and I'm sure they can find takers for Benson -- whether the Reds are involved or not.

    2. We create space in the OF for WMP. In my opinion, we need to get him 500 ABs, not 250, to get a better read on whether he's a possible keeper/cornerstone for the future. There's a lot of talk about EdwinE, but WMP is the #1 position player prospect we have, a possible middle of the lineup difference maker (and possible bust), so committing to his development is more important than rolling the dice that we'll find another taker for Casey.

    3. I have no problem with taking on a burden (Jarvis or possibly Benson) in 2004 if it means we have more resources in 2005. Like Falls City, I believe the Reds will invest the money in their baseball operation, whether it's at the MLB level or in player development. I don't think this team will compete in 2004, nor do I think they should allocate dollars with only 2004 in mind -- that was always Bowden's MO, I thought -- trying to be competitive every year and sacrificing the future (for example: no $ for draft signings). I hope this administration sees farther than 6 months ahead.

    There's no downside to moving Casey in either deal, in my opinion, so long as you accept that 2004 will be a year to build, not compete. If we hold onto him, we may be stuck with him through 2005 at least, and possibly through 2006. Is that a gamble you're willing to take, when the payoff is possibly just something a little better than Kevin Jarvis (or a savings of $4.25 million in 2004)?
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #72
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    You want a three-way deal with this thing? What about this...

    Reds trade Casey to Pittsburgh for Kris Benson.

    Pirates then deal Kendall to San Diego for Jarvis.

    Jarvis replaces Benson in the rotation while Casey mans lst base for the Bucs. The Pirates save 3 million in salaries with this deal. Of course, the Bucs and Padres have to agree how much money the Bucs will send to offset Kendall's contract.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  14. #73
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    I know that people on this thread have said that the Pirates have an interest in Casey. But I also know some people at the Pirates, and they have repeatedly told me over the last several years that the Littlefield crew does NOT like him. They don't care that he's from Pittsburgh. If savafan's reports are accurate, then most likely they are more interested in dumping other contracts than they are in acquiring Casey in particular.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  15. #74
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M2

    REDREAD, look at what the White Sox dealt for Bart Colon or what the Phillies dealt for Kevin Millwood. The Reds can beat that, easy. What you need is the cash to take on that kind of contract.
    .
    This is a good point.
    However, both Millwood and Colon came cheap in trades
    partially because they were one year away from free agency.
    A move like that is great when you are close to contending.
    It would've been great for 2003.. plugging in Millwood/Colon
    instead of our sorry parade of #5 starters might've kept us
    in the race long enough to avoid a fire sale.

    However, it 2005, we're probably far away from
    contending.

    The Reds are at the point now where they have to accumulate
    as much talent as possible. If they do trade for pitching,
    it has to be pitching talent that will be around for awhile.

    That's why I'm not really high on the idea of Casey for Jarvis.
    There's a pretty big deficit in talent there. Casey certainly isn't
    the top 1b in the league, but he's a lot better than Jarvis.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that. The whole reason you'd
    trade Casey is for the hope of pay-flex in 2005-2006..
    But in those years, we'll likely still be in a talent gathering
    phase.. Could we realistically expect the payflex money to be
    dumped into the draft or on Latin/Cuban players? If we could expect
    that, I'd be more inclined to accept this deal.

    Or if we could get a useful player for 2004.. not necessarily great,
    but useful, then I'd be more inclined to like this deal.

    But it looks to me like we're trading Casey for one year of a black
    hole and no promises that the payflex won't be used to "cover raises",
    as it always has in the past.

    If the farm system was loaded enough to give us legitimate hope for 2005,
    I'd be more optimistic as well.. (that the payflex could make an impact
    in 2005)..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  16. #75
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by REDREAD
    Casey certainly isn't the top 1b in the league, but he's a lot better than Jarvis.
    Considering position played, contract status, and detriment to the development of other, younger players, I'd say Casey is a lot worse than Jarvis. What's more, the Reds wouldn't necessarily have to hand Jarvis a starting spot. One can only imagine the wailing and gnashing across Redsland if they actually sat Casey.

    I'll also go on record to say that Jarvis is a bright enough guy that he just might go against all expectations and trends and have a good year or two.

    Then again, I'm also waiting for Jimmy A. to surface...
    Last edited by malcontent; 11-19-2003 at 05:32 AM.
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