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Thread: Roberto Petagine

  1. #61
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Neil Young thinking he's more knowledgable than Steel. Now that's funny.

    BTW, Mark Prior was drafted second. The Reds couldn't have drafted him even if they wanted.

    And I highly doubt Rolen would have signed in Cincy for less than St. Louis. He never gave any indication as such. Plus, he was a FA at the end of the year. If he wanted to sign with Cincy at a significant discount, he would have given some indication that's what he wanted.
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  3. #62
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    Re: Ten Ways SteelSD is WRONG AGAIN

    Originally posted by NEILYNG
    [B]There are only a handful of people walking around on the planet who would read so much inaccurate information into a post in an attempt to put thir own "spin" on it -- and SteelSD -- I believe that you smell like one of them.

    Are you back to drinking AGAIN?



    You obviously don't follow the game too closely -- or even this thread. As was previously reported Roberto Petagine had indicated a desire to get back to the states and would've signed for $3 -- so you're wrong there (number one).
    given. so the bench is mostly payed for.

    Scott Rolen is from southern Indiana (Jasper, Indiana) and had a preference to play in Cincinnati and would've gone there for less money -- so you are wrong again (number two).
    he probably would, but it probably wouldn't be enough to matter. reduced to $7.3 mil at best.

    Reese IMO would only be acquired if part of the contract was paid for by the other club -- som your wrong again (number three)
    you already stated that if Reese was never released. the Reds would be paying the whole contract. and you must be clairvoyent to say that Reese's contract would be co-payed.

    Junior's deferred money is just that -- and it cannot be deferred and then brought forth and estimated as devalued -- and call this the current season's payroll. You can do it but to do so would make you, yes -- wrong again (number four)
    want to bet? run a search for "Griffey's Contract" or "Deffered Money," this has been discussed in length. and yes, deffered money counts very much.

    I screwed up by saying Nen, I meant Rod Beck, and the reference to San Diego should've clued any knowledagble fan of that -- but I don't suspect you could be categorized as that which is why you didn't catch it. But it is acknowledgd as my mistake (number one for me).
    actually we all caught it. we talked about it during chat. we still had Scott Williamson when the Padres got him, so there was no point in getting a re-tread closer at the time. especially one who had been struggling to hit 80 earlier on.

    Why would I put Prior in this hypothetical rotation as indicative of Bowden possibly getting one draft pick right -- and you disallow it. Hold on, I have to laugh a bit at that logic....
    wouldn't matter, the year Prior was drafted, the Cubs got to pick about 8 rounds ahead of the Reds. Bowden could have planned on drafting him, didn't matter, he wound't have been there.

    [quoite]OK, well, flight of fancy or not, I'm keeping Prior in there and it is my hypothetical lineup so that would make you wrong again (number five).[/quote] it's an impossible hypothetical.

    When one does put together a hypothetical lineup there would be no cost certainty and would contain some underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Claussen not back from TJ surgery). Instead of being critical of what someone else hypothesizes, why not put your energy into saying something meaningful of your own? To do otherwise would ake you -- yes -- wrong again (number six).[/qoute] do a search for a thread by Krust called: "How much do the Reds need to Retool?" or something like that, and read Steel's response. and in a hypothetical line up, you can estimate price tags accurately. unless of course, it's Bowden writing the contract.

    Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven)
    for all you know, if Boone doesn't go to Seattle, he stays a very poor hitter. also, there is no way you could fit that group of people into a $50,000,000 payroll.

    If you think a rotation anchored with Prior and Livan Hernandez and having Claussen as your number three guy -- with Wilson at four and Acevedo at five is not a vast improvement, well you know what you'd be -- wrong wrong wrong (number eight)
    would be an improvement. except there's no way we could have drafted Prior (or Zito for that matter), Hernandez has been a trash pitcher until this year, and i think it's mostly because he's pitching in a pitcher's park and is playing for a contract. it would be an improvement, but an impossible one to achieve, especially at Hernandez' price.

    [quoite]If you think the relief corp of Beck and Wagner as closers, with Graves, Reidling, Reistma and Harang is not deep and has vastly more capabilities than what we have now -- (number ten -- is what you'd be).
    again, Beck is in San Diego, because WIlliamson was in Cincinati. Wagner would have to be shut down this year anyway because of college innings, and there's no way i make Wagner a closer this early on...too much pressure too soon. and this is basically what you said earlier when discussing Beck. your stretching like JimBo's leather pants to get to 10.
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  4. #63
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    Wow. Neil's trying to talk baseball. That's so cute!

    You obviously don't follow the game too closely -- or even this thread. As was previously reported Roberto Petagine had indicated a desire to get back to the states and would've signed for $3 -- so you're wrong there (number one).
    I assume that's 3 Million and not 3 dollars. The problem is that Petagine may have wanted 3M BEFORE he was given a 2-year/12M deal, but he'd need significant enticement to leave 6 Million dollars behind. I'm not even convinced that 5 Million is significant enticement being that he's 32 years old and has only a few paydays left.

    Scott Rolen is from southern Indiana (Jasper, Indiana) and had a preference to play in Cincinnati and would've gone there for less money -- so you are wrong again (number two).
    Really? Well, being that he signed fairly quickly with St. Louis rather than going to Free Agency and signing with the Reds, you have nothing to back that up. If Rolen did want to come to Cinci and play for less than his current salary, then he would have waited until after last season and done so. He didn't. Sorry.

    Reese IMO would only be acquired if part of the contract was paid for by the other club -- som your wrong again (number three)
    Why would the Reds trade for Reese in the first place after swapping his worthless butt for Gabe White? No smart team trades for a player worth negative runs, so your "acquisition" of Reese is a ridiculously bad move in the first place- especially considering that, in your scenario, another team would be willing to eat salary to get rid of him. Worthless players do not a good team make. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

    Junior's deferred money is just that -- and it cannot be deferred and then brought forth and estimated as devalued -- and call this the current season's payroll. You can do it but to do so would make you, yes -- wrong again (number four)
    It can't? John Allen is storing Griffey's deferred money away and counting it against team payroll- meaning that, according to him, Ken Griffey Junior is making 12.5 Million Dollars this year. The money Griffey is set to receive at the end of his contract is certainly not only devalued by inflation, but it's devalued by the Reds- who are earning float income on the monies they're storing away RIGHT NOW.

    Given current interest rates on those earnings, the Reds stand to make a few million dollars on those funds BEFORE they ever disburse a dollar to Griffey. Average that out over the course of the contract, including deferred money, and you arrive at a current allocation of around 10M to have Ken Griffey Junior on the club. It's not my fault that you can't do the math on that.

    I screwed up by saying Nen, I meant Rod Beck, and the reference to San Diego should've clued any knowledagble fan of that -- but I don't suspect you could be categorized as that which is why you didn't catch it. But it is acknowledgd as my mistake (number one for me).
    Actually, "any knowledgeable fan" understand the difference between "Robb Nen" and "Rod Beck". But considering that the whole of your "analysis" is complete hindsight, it doesn't surprise me that you'd sign a guy who had a near 6.00 ERA last year. Unfortunately, that's just the kind of "retread" you claim to hate because Jim Bowden signed them. Try to be a bit more consistent next time.

    Why would I put Prior in this hypothetical rotation as indicative of Bowden possibly getting one draft pick right -- and you disallow it. Hold on, I have to laugh a bit at that logic....
    You can't put Prior in the rotation as the Reds NEVER EVER had the chance to draft Mark Prior. Using your retarded logic, I could post a "what-if" linup including Alex Rodriguez at SS- a player who we also never had the opportunity to select.

    OK, well, flight of fancy or not, I'm keeping Prior in there and it is my hypothetical lineup so that would make you wrong again (number five).
    So you including a player we never had the chance to acquire would make me "wrong"???? That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

    When one does put together a hypothetical lineup there would be no cost certainty and would contain some underperforming/unproven players (Konerko, Reese, Graves, Petagine), unproven youngsters (Claussen, Acevedo, Harang), or injured players (Claussen not back from TJ surgery). Instead of being critical of what someone else hypothesizes, why not put your energy into saying something meaningful of your own? To do otherwise would ake you -- yes -- wrong again (number six).
    Cost certainty is necessary for a small market team. I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Your approach is an extreme dice roll- and it's not even a GOOD dice roll considering the circumstances surrounding your "hindsight" players. Your response basically says that we could have acquired/kept every single player you want. The problem with that? The players you want just aren't very good. Sorry, kid.

    Now if you feel a lineup that includes Bret Boone, Austin Kearns, Junior Griffey, Scott Rolen and Paul Konerko is not formidable -- well I would be obliged to respect your opnion -- but would also see you as WRONG AGAIN (number seven)
    I've actually been a proponent of acquiring Scott Rolen, so that's not a point of contention. And we already HAVE Austin Kearns and Griffey, so your point is moot there (as most of your points are in the three times you've actually posted about baseball).

    That leaves Konerko, who is almost as bad a value as Casey is this year and he's a player who is almost always significantly overrated even when he does produce. As Boston has shown with David Ortiz, one can do much better at 1B than spending 6+ Million Dollars on either Konerko or Casey.

    If you think a rotation anchored with Prior and Livan Hernandez and having Claussen as your number three guy -- with Wilson at four and Acevedo at five is not a vast improvement, well you know what you'd be -- wrong wrong wrong (number eight)
    Again...the Reds could not have aquired Mark Prior. No way no how. Including him is, again, like saying that we'd be better off with a young Alex Rodriguez. Duh. Unfortunately, we had no shot at either player. Build a bridge and get over it.

    If you think the relief corp of Beck and Wagner as closers, with Graves, Reidling, Reistma and Harang is not deep and has vastly more capabilities than what we have now -- (number ten -- is what you'd be).
    Are you kidding?? With the state of the pen AT THIS VERY MOMENT, we have Graves, Reidling, and Reitsma there. We'll have Wagner (a Jim Bowden draftee BTW- that must hurt) in 2004. So basically, you're using your immaculate hindsight to project that Robb Nen..errr Rob Beck now...would have helped the pen. Wow. Instead, why not claim that you knew all about Esteban Loaiza and just be done with it?

    Seriously, if you're going to look for hindsight values- including players we couldn't have possibly acquired- why not look at GOOD players instead of the chaff you're throwing out there??

    I mean, the guys you're suggesting could barely eat a peach. And that seems to be something important you you.

  5. #64
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    I remember being on the AOL board a few years back, and some poster going on and on about Roberto Petagine non stop, saying he was the savior of the franchise, but Boy Blunder Bowden had deposed him to Japan. And when I gave a dissenting view (not on Petagine, but on the obsession), the only comeback that I received was about UK and FedEx (actually, it was Emery, but I guess he is too busy gawking at his Petagine picture framed in his living room)

    Good to see the more things change (like the location of the posts), the more they stay the same (Neil championing the cause of the immortal Roberto Petagine).

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    Originally posted by NKyRedMachine
    I remember being on the AOL board a few years back, and some poster going on and on about Roberto Petagine non stop, saying he was the savior of the franchise, but Boy Blunder Bowden had deposed him to Japan. And when I gave a dissenting view (not on Petagine, but on the obsession), the only comeback that I received was about UK and FedEx (actually, it was Emery, but I guess he is too busy gawking at his Petagine picture framed in his living room)

    Good to see the more things change (like the location of the posts), the more they stay the same (Neil championing the cause of the immortal Roberto Petagine).
    I don't recall discussing the United Kingdom (UK) with anyone from Kentucky. As for the FedEx and/or Emery thing -- if you are bringing up innocuous statements made years ago -- I think it's time you tried building a bridge and getting over it.


  7. #66
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    OMG! I just tuned into this thread for the first time.

    DEJA VU or what!?

    Do you think the real Neil Young believes in reincarnation?
    "I've never understood the term "women and children" as if their lives are somewhat more important than men."

  8. #67
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    Originally posted by TeamCasey
    OMG! I just tuned into this thread for the first time.

    DEJA VU or what!?

    Do you think the real Neil Young believes in reincarnation?
    Reincarnation or deju vu. I didn't know anybody died.

    If I had ever been here before I would probably know just what to do. Don't you?

  9. #68
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    I don't really care for Neil's tone on this thread, needlessly going after Chip, Steel, etc.

    But I think he's absolutely right about the Reds' failure to recognize what they had in Petagine. The Reds cannot afford to throw away free talent, and that's what they (and the Padres/Mets before them) had in Petagine. This guy could have been an all-star for us, even at first base, while making a very low salary.

    I've talked to baseball executives about this guy, asking if he had any personal baggage, etc., keeping American teams from resigning him, and the answer was 'no.' He just happened to not hit well in his first major league 200 at-bats. He did hit well in his last 100 plate appearances or so (obp around .400), but MLB teams had already typed him as a major league flop.

    They blew it. There are other guys like this, whom the Reds could acquire for very little. That's why they should hire me. Petagine is now out of reach. I'm glad he got his big pay day.
    Last edited by cincinnati chili; 09-11-2003 at 02:31 PM.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

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    Originally posted by cincinnati chili
    I don't really care for Neil's tone on this thread, needlessly going after Chip, Steel, etc.

    But I think he's absolutely right about the Reds' failure to recognize what they had in Petagine. The Reds cannot afford to throw away free talent, and that's what they (and the Padres/Mets before them) had in Petagine. This guy could have been an all-star for us, even at first base, while making a very low salary.

    I've talked to baseball executives about this guy, asking if he had any personal baggage, etc., keeping American teams from resigning him, and the answer was 'no.' He just happened to not hit well in his first major league 200 at-bats. He did hit well in his last 100 plate appearances or so (obp around .400), but MLB teams had already typed him as a major league flop.

    They blew it. There are other guys like this, whom the Reds could acquire for very little. That's why they should hire me. Petagine is now out of reach. I'm glad he got his big pay day.
    I don;t know how someone can detect any "tone" by reading another's e-mail/posts. I suppose one could read some "tone" into an e-mail/post but to do that would be wrong.

    The most of your post was correct though in getting to my point -- which always was that I felt the Reds blew it with Petagine. It is compounded by the awful deal that Bowden then gave Casey.

    Small market teams have to get some of the clls like this right -- instead of always getting them wrong.

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    Originally posted by NEILYNG
    I don;t know how someone can detect any "tone" by reading another's e-mail/posts. I suppose one could read some "tone" into an e-mail/post but to do that would be wrong.

    The most of your post was correct though in getting to my point -- which always was that I felt the Reds blew it with Petagine. It is compounded by the awful deal that Bowden then gave Casey.

    Small market teams have to get some of the clls like this right -- instead of always getting them wrong.
    Who is to say Petagine would hit in the majors he never did. He was putting up Brandon Larson esq numbers in AAA and in the majors. He couldn't beat out Eduardo Perez in spring training. The Casey deal is irrelavent in regards to Petagine. Casey proved himself at the MLB level and Petagine didn't. That is why he not Petagine got the contract. Whether it was a bad deal or not that is what happened. And the Reds dont always get "theese" calls wrong. See Pokey Reese among others. You hate Bowden you hate Casey now get your boxers out of bunch, put the hindsight away and get with the present. We all know your feelings and to be honest most of us do not care.

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    Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
    You hate Bowden you hate Casey now get your boxers out of bunch, put the hindsight away and get with the present. We all know your feelings and to be honest most of us do not care.
    Do you run the Chelsea Drug Store because you sure know how to hand out "abuse"?

    Like someone else sdai, this isn't RedsZone Select -- where you can limit who says what about opinions you only are in agreement with. If you want to belong to the NaziRedsArea go sign up for Bill Lack's ListServ. From what you've shown -- you'd feel right at home almost immediately.

  13. #72
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SYCMiniBus
    Who is to say Petagine would hit in the majors
    Me. And a lot of other people. The Japanese Leagues are superior to Triple A. He's OPS'ing over 1000 in Japan year after year with a good walk rate. Larson has never had a good walk rate. Worst case scenario, Petagine would have hit like Matsui. But it's more likely he would have hit the way Nick Johnson hit this year.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

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    Originally posted by cincinnati chili
    Me. And a lot of other people. The Japanese Leagues are superior to Triple A. He's OPS'ing over 1000 in Japan year after year with a good walk rate. Larson has never had a good walk rate. Worst case scenario, Petagine would have hit like Matsui. But it's more likely he would have hit the way Nick Johnson hit this year.
    Thanks -- but realize your opinion is not welcome unless it "fits" some other persons preset agenda. At least that is the way they like to portray it.

    I agree that Petagine never was given an appropriate shot in the MLB. Mart Brenneman feels the same way. Many people do. I also agree that his stats in Japan are actually superior to anyone who is currently there or has played the recently -- over a three or four year period.

    Bill James -- who the sabre-geeks around here love to quote when what he says supposedly validates their viewpoints -- has written numerous commentaries on how the Japan Leagues are like somewhere between AAA and the Majors. He projects that the stats in Japan are about 3/4 of what the same player would do in MLB. These guys know he's written that -- yet are acting deaf, dumb and blind to it now.

    I don't feel he is too old to be coming back here to play. Some guys actually get better in their thirties -- see Bonds, Barry.

    I also do know -- from very reliable sources -- he would come here for less money than he is getting over there. He wants the chance to prove he can play in the ML and is confident enough in his own abilities to come over here for less -- in the short run -- to make more in the long run.

    Anyway, you are a good guy -- I appreciate getting a normal message now and then too.

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    I am not saying Petagine would or wouldn't hit in the majors. I have no way of knowing. The Japan equastion that James put together holds true sometimes and others it doesn't. So Taguchi and Shinjo have never done much here other then ride Ichiro's coat tails. All I was trying to say was that Petagine may never have hit major league pitchers who knows. Go figure the Japaneese Leagues are about AAAA the same label Petagine was given. Maybe we should send Larson over there and see what he can do. Petagine may have put up All-Star numbers if given a chance but 30 other teams had a chance to claim him, and quite honestly I am not going to worry about the minor leaguer who got away in '98 when it is '03 and heading into the '04 season. Too much water under that bridge.

  16. #75
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    Originally posted by NEILYNG
    Thanks -- but realize your opinion is not welcome unless it "fits" some other persons preset agenda. At least that is the way they like to portray it.

    I agree that Petagine never was given an appropriate shot in the MLB. Mart Brenneman feels the same way. Many people do. I also agree that his stats in Japan are actually superior to anyone who is currently there or has played the recently -- over a three or four year period.

    Bill James -- who the sabre-geeks around here love to quote when what he says supposedly validates their viewpoints -- has written numerous commentaries on how the Japan Leagues are like somewhere between AAA and the Majors. He projects that the stats in Japan are about 3/4 of what the same player would do in MLB. These guys know he's written that -- yet are acting deaf, dumb and blind to it now.

    I don't feel he is too old to be coming back here to play. Some guys actually get better in their thirties -- see Bonds, Barry.

    I also do know -- from very reliable sources -- he would come here for less money than he is getting over there. He wants the chance to prove he can play in the ML and is confident enough in his own abilities to come over here for less -- in the short run -- to make more in the long run.

    Anyway, you are a good guy -- I appreciate getting a normal message now and then too.

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