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Thread: The Reds 2003 Revenue and Expenses

  1. #61
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    If the Reds bought these systems costing millions of dollars, and therfore reduced the final 10 million dollar payment, it would be logical to assume that the toal cost of these items and the payment are still going to equal about 10 million isn't it?
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

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  3. #62
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    After reading this thread, I got to thinking that maybe the reason why the Reds are cutting the payroll 10-12 million next season is because they are directing that money to the scouting and player development departments. The Reds added the likes of Terry Reynolds, Bill Wood, Ron Oester, Dean Taylor and seven new scouts. Other than Al Goldis, did anyone else leave the Reds organization since Bowden was fired? If not, you have to pay the salaries and benefits for these individuals, and one way could be is cutting the major league payroll and directing it to the farm system.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  4. #63
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    Originally posted by JaxRed
    If the Reds bought these systems costing millions of dollars, and therfore reduced the final 10 million dollar payment, it would be logical to assume that the toal cost of these items and the payment are still going to equal about 10 million isn't it?
    I would agree. I think the question would be whether that any of that $10 million was already counted in the $9 million of stadium maintenance (I would doubt it, as the $9 million comes from a 2002 article, but you never know).

  5. #64
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    I think a couple of things that we need to take into account is player depreciation and depreciation on anything the team owns. I know people believe these are accounting tricks to increase expenses but it is a legitimate expense and I'm sure the Reds claim it as such. Another expense that is a big unknown is if the Reds pay the owners any salary or if they receive dividends from any profits the Reds make.
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  6. #65
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    I disagree Chip. Yes there is depreciation. Yes we could amortize some items. But unless I miss the point of Redsland and most people, they want to know if the Reds have a positive or a negative cash flow.
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  7. #66
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Originally posted by backbencher
    I would agree. I think the question would be whether that any of that $10 million was already counted in the $9 million of stadium maintenance (I would doubt it, as the $9 million comes from a 2002 article, but you never know).
    I think there is almost ZERO chnace of those items being in the 9 mill. But, I have this vague recollection of hearing the Reds bought the new Video screen for 2002 season. If so, that would mean it would not be a 2003 expense.
    Last edited by JaxRed; 01-28-2004 at 06:58 PM.
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  8. #67
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JaxRed
    I disagree Chip. Yes there is depreciation. Yes we could amortize some items. But unless I miss the point of Redsland and most people, they want to know if the Reds have a positive or a negative cash flow.
    That may be Redsland's intention but people are going to see his post and this thread and say that the Reds are taking in more cash than they are paying out. Therefore the Reds are making gobs of money and are a bunch of lying scoundrels that are cheating the fans out of a higher payroll. Don't get me wrong, I think what Redsland is doing is very informative and he went to a lot of hard work to find all those numbers and the numbers seem to be legit. But expenses are expenses whether they be payroll, stadium or depreciation and you can bet your bottom dollar that the Reds count them as such.
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  9. #68
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    They are not going to say that if this thread is done right. I can tell you based on what I'm adding up, is that the numbers displayed here will show the Reds LOST money.
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  10. #69
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 4256 Hits
    I believe that WLW pays them but they are hired w/ the approval of the Reds.
    I think the Reds pay Marty and Joe. If I remember correctly, Marty and Joe were under gag orders from the Reds about mentioning certain things a couple of years ago. And they made it clear that that the order was from the Reds. Marty also has made comments that he will say things about the Reds players if they are playing poorly, regardless of how the Reds feel about it, because they didn't hire him to be the cheerleader. The Reds are looking for Joe's replacement, not WLW. John Allen has said that he has worked out agreements with Joe over this year, not WLW. Aren't they working under something like the Cincinnati Reds Baseball Radio Broadcast?
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  11. #70
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    No the Reds just have "approval authority"
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  12. #71
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    Very interesting read! I don't think anything will be proved w/ this because there is just to many unknowns but keep going I am enjoying.

    One large expense (I would expect they would get one) that is being missed is the owner(s) salary. I would guess both Carl and the limited are talking a salary from the Reds that could be any size.

  13. #72
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Great read! Thanks for the hard work
    Go Gators!

  14. #73
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Okay here's the revised info.

    I figured the 2 million we got for Boone and Williamson into the database. We also got undisclosed cash for White but I assume that was fairly small and i ignored it.

    That puts the Reds net payroll at $53,509,745. Before the add-on we discussed.

    The expenses of 13 million for baseball operations need to be 36 million minimum. (The MLB/Pappas numbers). As part of their negotiations with the County for the new stadium the Reds had their rent reduced to $1. So the 36 million figure is all "baseball operations".

    Since the 6 million listed for cost of materials and marketing would have been included in the umbrella 36 million, they should no longer be included.

    That means expenses are:

    Operations 36 mill
    Rent 2.5 mill
    Maintenance 9 mill
    The combination of the remainder of last 10 million dollar payment, adding what Reds spent I'm calling 10 mill.
    Payroll 61,062,016



    That means total expenses are $118, 562, 016

    On the revenue side. The old agreement on concessions was a 90/10 split with the county. Now, the Reds could keep all 90% and run their own operations, but they instead gave 60% to Sportservice. Meaning the Reds got 30% of the revenue.

    In the new contract, there was no split with the county. The Reds got 100%. But again they decided to give Sportservice a percentage. If they did better as John Allen says, it safe to say they kept 40% this time. That makes Concession revenue $6,594,725, reducing the previous Revenue estimate by $9,892,088.

    Total Revenue is now: $108, 779, 572
    Total Expenses : $118, 562, 016

    Net Loss - $9,892,088

    A couple articles mentioned 11 or 12 million in luxury items the Reds are paying. I think these are in addition to these figures, but I can't be positive, so I did not include them
    Last edited by JaxRed; 01-29-2004 at 02:06 PM.
    The lowest acceptable payroll amount for ownership to show they are not greedy pigs is 15 million more than they are currently paying. No matter what that currently is.

  15. #74
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    Man, you guys are amazing.
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  16. #75
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Boy, what an exceptional thread. Thanks a lot to all who researched and contributed to this.

    I hope we can come to some final numbers everyone can agree on and archive this.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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