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Thread: Homosexuality, baseball's biggest taboo

  1. #61
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Far East,

    You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with you...in part. Unfortunately, sexual immorality is all too natural. It is a part of our sin nature that all of us are born with. And in a limited sense, I also see the possibility that one person is bent more toward expressing sexual desire with the same sex as another. I don't think that position is antithetical to the Scriptural position on sin. We all do not have the same struggles. We are all fallen creatures and our sexuality has to be redeemed the same as any other area of our life. The problems come in when we don't want to acknowledge that a particular behavior is sinful when it is clearly called so by the One who decides what's sin and what isn't. And that ain't the pope and it ain't me, its God Almighty, the King of kings and Lord of lords. The Creator gets to decide what is natural and unnatural, not the creatures.

    On the other hand, more than half of heterosexual marriages end in divorce, frequently with one (or both) "straight" souse(s) pursuing another partner and with much trauma to perhaps millions of children.
    Right. Which is why adultery, whether homo or hetero sexual is wrong. So can we call that a moral absolute now?
    Last edited by traderumor; 03-01-2004 at 12:29 PM.

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  3. #62
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    ...sex is ultimately for pro-creation...
    I hope this doesn't sound elitist, because some so called experts have been often been proven wrong later, but many if not all anthropologists rank pair-bonding, not procreation, as the primary function of sex in humans.

    See some of these results from a Google search:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...=Google+Search

  4. #63
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    I know a family where recently, the father left them to pursue a gay relationship. It has been traumatic on the wife and kids, and the wife was so terribly afraid that she possibly could have contracted HIV. It's a real sad situation.
    I know a family where the father, as straight a heterosexual male as any of you "real men", 'way back in the early 80s (before AIDS was identified as a STD killer), was in SanFran for a while, and with the times and the place being the way they were (free love, hippies, flower children), he had a one-time same-sex encounter, just for the experience and experimentation. He died 11 years later from terminal AIDS. True story.

    Ya see, it's not just gays who "have a problem". It's just stupid people. And the ability of some diseases to mutate into lethal epidemics.
    Whatever. It just seems to me that sex is ultimately for pro-creation
    Just for curiosity's sake (and to hijack this thread a bit ), RandyinCharNC, how do you feel about people who've been married for 30+ years who found out early on that they cannot have children due to some kind of infertility problem? Do you think it's a sin for them to continue to enjoy sex throughout the rest of their marriage?

  5. #64
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    I also don't understand the deal on this when not one player has ever come out while playing and stated that he was gay.
    Billy Bean has explained why he didn't come out while playing. He feared physical retribution in a form that might lead to a career-ending injury. Injuries happen all the time on the diamond. It would be next to impossible to prove that another player caused one intentionally.

    The "deal on this" is that the openly-expressed slurs create a hostile environment that bears little difference to you or I going around at our workplaces and saying things that are degrading to the opposite sex. That is called "hate speech." It is offensive to the people depicted and they would have a legal right to sue us and our employers for creating a hostile work environment.

    Surely you can relate to this. Put yourself in the shoes of the slurred. What if the slurs were against people who wear glasses or have big noses or whatever stands out about you?

    There is no need for individuals to be slurring any group of people - whether they are present at the time the slur is uttered or not. As a society, we have progressed beyond that. For those in the workplace who have not progressed, fortunately, there are legal remedies.
    Last edited by Unassisted; 03-01-2004 at 02:10 PM.

  6. #65
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Traderumor is right on the mark with his comments about sin. We can't put varying degrees on sin, and pick and choose the ones we like, or want to uphold. Ultimately, only God can condemn sin, but he has given us a roadmap for living if we only will pick it up and read it and ask for his discernment for understanding it.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  7. #66
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    What if the slurs were against people who wear glasses or have big noses or whatever stands out about you?
    Or Christian, the one slur that its ok to hurl insults at in our culture?

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    ..if my child made a conscious decision to pursue that lifestyle...
    traderumor,

    First:The civility and respect shown by you and all other posters on this thread on such a controversial subject as this is genuinely encouraging.

    Second:There's a chance that you are right about this hypothetical sin by your child, but please remember if that ever happens to you or a friend or relative that there's also the chance that the child's genetics -- beyond his control -- is at work, not something selected as one would choose a wardrobe, a favorite restaurant, of a favorite sports team.

  9. #68
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    Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
    Whatever. It just seems to me that sex is ultimately for pro-creation and two individuals of the same sex cannot, naturally, create a child. It just doesn't work that way. Not a natural kind of thing from where I sit.
    I'm not picking you out Randy...honest!!! You just say things that make me think of questions...I guess that means I read more of your posts or they prompt me to ask questions more...I'm not picking on you. I like you!!!

    Anywho, by what you say above does that mean that a couple that either can't have children due to health reasons or couples that choose not to have children for whatever reason...does that mean they should not bother to have sex or get married?

    Again, not picking on you and my question is not just directed at you! It is anyone that thinks marriage and sex are for procreation only.

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    Thank you TR!

    Wonderful post!



    Originally posted by traderumor
    I disagree with homosexuality because my religious beliefs consider it sin. Therefore, if my child made a conscious decision to pursue that lifestyle, I would treat the decision just as if they had chosen any other sinful lifestyle. I would attempt to share parental wisdom based on Scriptural principles and let them decide what to do with the advice. They would know that I loved them because sin is sin. All of my children are sinful, regardless of the particular wrongdoings, so if I would shun them from my family for that particular sin, then I would have to shun the rest of them for their sin also. I don't get to pick and choose what sins my children are going to commit. But I do get the opportunity to keep leading them to the Savior, whom ultimately they belong to anyway.

    Honestly, I do think about things like that and prepare a response, even though I hope to never have to use it. I think about how I will respond to any of my children if they walk in one day as a teenager and say "dad, I'm pregnant" or "dad, I got my girlfriend pregnant." The same goes for if my child one day came to me and said "dad, I'm homosexual." They will get a response along the lines of the above and a lot of love, which hopefully will lead them to or back to their Savior and away from the sin that so easily besets us all.

  11. #70
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by cincinnati chili:

    All of those things hurt other people. Homosexuality hurts nobody.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
    Tell that to the families that it has torn apart. I also believe that the AIDS epidemic that is rampant in the gay community would refute that statement.

    I realize that I won't change anyone's mind, and I knew that I wouldn't when this one started, but I feel that homosexuality is not natural and plain wrong. Everyone has a right to believe what they want, and I respect that. I won't bang my head against the wall on this one. There's really nothing left to say that would make any difference.
    Homosexuality hasn't caused families to be "torn apart." I know this from experience from having a gay person in my immediate family.

    I can believe that people's overrecation to homosexuality can tear families apart (e.g. father disowns son because he's gay). I can believe that marital INFIDELITY (hetero or homo) can tear families apart.

    I don't like families being torn apart any more than you do, but I don't think you can equate this to some of the things that really tear families apart (alcohol, drugs, abuse, infidelity). I also think that gays and lesbians are less likely to enter into doomed heterosexual marriages if society makes them feel more comfortable to come out of the closet sooner rather than later.

    Getting back to the primary topic though, I have to agree that this IS the #1 taboo in men's sports - rightly or wrongly. Most athletes, for better or for worse, seem to be more comfortable playing with a convicted felon than they do playing with an openly gay teammate. Personally, if I were on the Cleveland Indians, I'd fear Milton Bradley (not yet a felon, but heading in that direction) more than Mr. Tedano. But I think I'd be in the minority.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  12. #71
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Second:There's a chance that you are right about this hypothetical sin by your child, but please remember if that ever happens to you or a friend or relative that there's also the chance that the child's genetics -- beyond his control -- is at work, not something selected as one would choose a wardrobe, a favorite restaurant, of a favorite sports team.
    Far East,

    I have already acknowledged that it is genetics. Since Adam, genetics has ensured that we all inherit a sin nature, and the choice as to what we struggle with is not always up to us and is often beyond our ability to shake them. That's what Christ (the second Adam) died for. To redeem fallen men and women, whether they be homosexual, idolators, fornicators, liars, God haters, and a whole lot more things that Paul listed out in several of his episitles. A discussion such as this always takes me back to one of Christ's teachings http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...=1&showtools=1
    It is always real easy to look at a sinful lifestyle that we have no desire to engage in and wag our fingers, but we must all repent of our sins, whatever those may be, or we shall all likewise perish.

  13. #72
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Interesting read, and thank you to everyone, which ever "side" you are on for being civil.

    Personally, I could not care less if one is gay/straight/bi/tri whatever, it is ther business, not mine. My place on earth does not ivolve judgement, that is saved for someone far more important than I.

    When I was younger, I felt different. I threw around the barbs and insults. I didn't know anyone (or at least I thought I didn't) that was gay. Then I grew older and found out that I had friends and fraternity brothers who were gay and said, what difference does it make, its the same person.

    I think many people have anti-homosexual feelings because of fear...fear of being associated with one (so that you become labled a fag, homo, etc), even fear of being "converted." I still remember my grandmother telling me to "watch for the homosexuals, they will try to get you."

    In all honesty, what do we have to fear from a homosexual?

    So, I say, to each thier own, it may not be my bag, but it has zero effect on me at the same time.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  14. #73
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Originally posted by traderumor
    Or Christian, the one slur that its ok to hurl insults at in our culture?
    Forgive the hijack, folks.

    Using network TV as a reference point and "The Simpsons" in particular, I'd say you have a point. Overall, I think that overweight people are more likely to be on the receiving end of this type of insult. And isn't it ironic, since the majority of people in this country fall into one or both of those categories?

  15. #74
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    "Or Christian, the one slur that its ok to hurl insults at in our culture?"

    Puh-leeze.

    Yeah, Christians are REALLY backed into a corner in this country.

    Next time the "Passion of Allah" shows at the multiplex, PM me.

  16. #75
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Ok, what do I win unassisted. I'm both. I betcha no one has seen a thread on gluttony over on the other board, have they? :

    FCB, I wasn't trying to be combative with that statement (although I knew it would sound like a pity party), but it is ironic that as a Christian that I am considered intolerant when expressing my opinion based on Biblical principals simply because I am using Scripture to support my conclusions. In other words, intolerance is the Biblical opinion, while all others views must be "tolerated." That was my point.

    As for the passion of Allah, since there is no historical basis for such a thing, it would be kinda silly to make such a movie. But when was the last time you heard a derisive comment directed at Muslims from a member of the media? Yet you could find a quote daily where someone has slurred the historic Christian faith.
    Last edited by traderumor; 03-01-2004 at 02:33 PM.


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