But aren't we all sinners? That is what the Bible and church teaches us. So I guess in your book, no one is morally upstanding.Originally posted by 44Magnum
That is the most ignorant comment I have ever seen on any forum. You can't be upstanding morally if you are a sinner. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
Originally Posted by Raisor
M2,
I know you're RC, so I know you are reading Rome's version of church history. I call your historical source revisionist, you call mine revisionist. I'm Protestant, you're Catholic. Looks like we come to another impasse, so it will really not matter.
Sorry, Johnny for referring you to the wrong link. Let me follow up on that for ya.
tr, I'm hardly doctrinaire when it comes to the RCC. I'm sure there's an official Roman version of Church history, but I've never seen it. And if you Google "Bible" and "source texts" or "gospels" and "source texts" there's a universe of scholarship on the subject and the things I've been talking about are dates and a general description of the compiliation process which no one much disputes.
All I'm noting is that the people who put the book together kept extensive notes on how they did it and where they got their material from. It so happens those people were the early RCC and there's nothing either one of us can do about that. It doesn't matter if you're Protestant, Orthodox or Coptic, if you're interested in the origins of the Bible, the Catholics are the ones in possession of the relevant materials. There's nearly 2,000 years of scholarship devoted to those materials. In short, there's nothing secretive about them. The record is wide open for anyone who wants to look into it.
BTW, please don't read my posts as an argument that Catholics are right and Protestants are wrong. What I've been trying to make a case for here is that once you recognize a broad moral authority to the universe that exists outside of scripture, then you've kicked open the door to the possibility that scripture is not the end point of the discussion on morality. In other words, morality isn't necessarily a closed topic, we may still have more to learn. Even if you don't believe that, even if your faith instructs you otherwise, I'd like to think that you could allow for decent, fair-minded people holding that opinion.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Aww, you don't hate them, you just wanna change who they are. How sweet.Originally posted by paulrichjr
I hope that you did not read into my quote that I felt that Jackie Robinson's "problem" was that he was black and I felt that this was truly a problem... I even said in the next sentence that racisim is just as bad in my eyes as being a homosexual. I should have put quotations around the word problem but I neglected to do so... I am appalled at racism just as I do not agree with being mean to gays. I want anyone who didn't read the first page to realize that as far as I know I am the only one that has actually admitted to having homosexuals close to me in my life... Once when one lived at my home (I was a teenager) for I believe over a year and now one in my office. I am very friendly and respect them as people - they are friends. I don't treat them any different than I treated an 18 year old friend of my family who got caught Friday night drinking and driving. I don't accept the behavior as normal or correct behavior. I still am friends with them and do not shun them.
I believe that Chili made the comment that homosexuality does not tear homes apart but that simply isn't true. The guy that works in my office who is gay recently had his entire family (wife and 2 very beautiful daughters) move out on him. They have now divorced and he has to drive 5 hours one way just to see his kids. He chose sex with a man over raising his two kids. I'm sorry but this is wrong pure and simple. By the way his ex-wife doesn't even know he is gay. Why did she leave? Because he was arrested for contributing to the deliquency of a minor. He use to hang around 16 year old boys a lot for some reason and buy them beer... (No idea why) He is a 42 year old CPA who at one time was a very respected member of my small community and still is to some extent. Almost no one knows that he is gay. I truly feel sorry for him and his kids.
I also want to say that I am happy that this thread has not been closed. I would hope someone doesn't see this as a Christians against gays because that is simply not what being a Christian is about. As many others have stated... We do not persecute them we simply want to see them turn their lives around. We don't hate them.. we hate the sin that they are committing.
I shall now begin my attempts to turn every christian into a satanist.
If only it was this simple...it wasn't an issue of whom he wanted to simply have sex with, it was an issue of whom he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and be happy...plain and simple. I agree with the fact that walking our on your children is simply wrong, on all levels...but this has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation.Originally posted by paulrichjr
He chose sex with a man over raising his two kids.
Originally posted by Michael Allred
Aww, you don't hate them, you just wanna change who they are. How sweet.
I shall now begin my attempts to turn every christian into a satanist.
We have a difference of opinion. It's that simple. I don't believe that this is "WHO THEY ARE." I believe that they are engaging in activities that are wrong. You think they can't help themselves. I think they can. I don't want a drunk to be a drunk. I don't want a rapist to rape. I don't want a liar to lie. I don't want a homosexual to have sex with men. We don't agree and won't agree...so let's agree to disagree.
Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.
This topic has really diverted from baseball. Any chance it can be moved to the other board?
"Whatever you choose, however many roads you travel, I hope that you choose not to be a lady. I hope you will find some way to break the rules and make a little trouble out there. And I also hope that you will choose to make some of that trouble on behalf of women." - Nora Ephron
Originally posted by RedsFan74
If only it was this simple...it wasn't an issue of whom he wanted to simply have sex with, it was an issue of whom he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and be happy...plain and simple. I agree with the fact that walking our on your children is simply wrong, on all levels...but this has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation.
I actually think it is "that simple." He chose to leave his wife and kids for sex with guys. Not just one guy but many guys.... He would rather have sex with guys than raise his kids that he brought into the world.
Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.
Those who think they can't help themselves have cited evidence from X chromosome studies (albeit inclusive ones), from pedigrees matching maternal mitochondrial DNA inheritance, and from prenatal intrauterine chemistry.You think they can't help themselves. I think they can.
http://www.netpci.com/~tttbbs/EPN-1/.../gaygene1.html
or
www.evolutionary-economics.org/ KSH-Postings-Econ/074.html.
or
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/19...satinover.html
What's your evidence that supports your thought that they can? I hope it's more than the so-called conversions of alleged homosexuals into alleged heterosexuality.
Interesting ... I've never heard homosexuals state a policy that they didn't want "straights" to have sex with the opposite sex.I don't want a homosexual to have sex with men.
From all that I can gather they preach and practice, "Live and let live," which probably should have been the 13th commandment for us all!
Just curious...what is the 11th and 12th commandment?Originally posted by Far East
Interesting ... I've never heard homosexuals state a policy that they didn't want "straights" to have sex with the opposite sex.
From all that I can gather they preach and practice, "Live and let live," which probably should have been the 13th commandment for us all!
Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.
Good idea. I don't think there's any chance of getting this back to baseball.Originally posted by TeamCasey
This topic has really diverted from baseball. Any chance it can be moved to the other board?
Better they find a woman they don't truly love and start a family that eventually comes crashing down when they can no longer live a lie.Originally posted by paulrichjr
I don't want a homosexual to have sex with men.
You've spent this whole thread talking about a specific case where a guy tried going straight with disastrous results and yet you type something like the above quote. What's the goal here? That the maximum number of people should be made miserable?
Aside from that, shouldn't there be some sort of internal circuit breaker on each of us where we stop trying to lead other people's live for them? Maybe it's just me, but dictating other people's sexual practices strikes me as more than a bit over the line. Should we heteros stick to certain positions? What time of day would you like to see people have their sex at? Should I treat sex like an unpleasant household chore or can I take some time to do it right? Do I have to keep my eyes closed?
Here's what confuses me. You're saying this guy gave up the responsibility and commitment of family for the thrill ride of gay sex. It's almost like you're saying that if we don't put a stop to this everyone's going to want to do it.Originally posted by paulrichjr
He chose to leave his wife and kids for sex with guys. Not just one guy but many guys.... He would rather have sex with guys than raise his kids that he brought into the world.
Seems to me gay sex is only a thrill ride if you're a homosexual. For the vast majority of us who aren't homosexuals, this is a non-issue. The reason why he left his family to lead a gay lifestyle is because he's gay. Those of us who aren't gay won't be following in his footsteps.
Plus, what do you think was easier for this guy from a social standpoint, being a well-respected member of the community and a family man or being considered a homosexual pariah?
I mean, if you were making a choice as to which road seemed the most appealing and least complicated, which one would you choose?
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
And this is exactly what kills me.Plus, what do you think was easier for this guy from a social standpoint, being a well-respected member of the community and a family man or being considered a homosexual pariah?
Its a "choice" in so many people's opinion ... but I've never heard a rationale for why someone would want to choose a more difficult way of life.
But then there are the people who believe people really are born gay ... but should live a heterosexual life, since their gayness is their "cross to bear" in life.
I'm not sure which of the above is more twisted.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Instead of believing silly religious backed notions that being gay is a "choice", how about you actually ask a homosexual?
I'm right here, ask away! Everything you wanted to know about homosexuality but were afraid to ask!
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