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Thread: Homosexuality, baseball's biggest taboo

  1. #76
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    Originally posted by Unassisted
    Overall, I think that overweight people are more likely to be on the receiving end of this type of insult.
    nah, the most frequent "slurs" on TV are about being a man-- especially a married man.

    but that's just TV. In real life I'm guessing that wife slurs are no. 1. I wouldn't be surprised if overweight slurs trump homosexual slurs for no. 2, but it might be the other order. Christian slurs are probably pretty far down

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  3. #77
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blondini
    I had a lot more problem with this excerpt from one of paulrichjr's post on Page 1 of this thread than I have ever had with any person who's declared his/her homosexuality.

    paulrichjr's quote...
    This argument that always seems to lead to Jackie Robinson being discussed is ridiculous. Jackie was not doing behavior that is unnatural and wrong. Jackie's problem was that he was black. Racism is just as bad as being a homosexual. It should not be tolerated.

    Just like the issue of gay-ness, blacks DIDN'T HAVE THE PROBLEM.....

    ....Grow up, Americans. Stop being so narrow-minded. Stop being so judgmental.
    I hope that you did not read into my quote that I felt that Jackie Robinson's "problem" was that he was black and I felt that this was truly a problem... I even said in the next sentence that racisim is just as bad in my eyes as being a homosexual. I should have put quotations around the word problem but I neglected to do so... I am appalled at racism just as I do not agree with being mean to gays. I want anyone who didn't read the first page to realize that as far as I know I am the only one that has actually admitted to having homosexuals close to me in my life... Once when one lived at my home (I was a teenager) for I believe over a year and now one in my office. I am very friendly and respect them as people - they are friends. I don't treat them any different than I treated an 18 year old friend of my family who got caught Friday night drinking and driving. I don't accept the behavior as normal or correct behavior. I still am friends with them and do not shun them.

    I believe that Chili made the comment that homosexuality does not tear homes apart but that simply isn't true. The guy that works in my office who is gay recently had his entire family (wife and 2 very beautiful daughters) move out on him. They have now divorced and he has to drive 5 hours one way just to see his kids. He chose sex with a man over raising his two kids. I'm sorry but this is wrong pure and simple. By the way his ex-wife doesn't even know he is gay. Why did she leave? Because he was arrested for contributing to the deliquency of a minor. He use to hang around 16 year old boys a lot for some reason and buy them beer... (No idea why) He is a 42 year old CPA who at one time was a very respected member of my small community and still is to some extent. Almost no one knows that he is gay. I truly feel sorry for him and his kids.

    I also want to say that I am happy that this thread has not been closed. I would hope someone doesn't see this as a Christians against gays because that is simply not what being a Christian is about. As many others have stated... We do not persecute them we simply want to see them turn their lives around. We don't hate them.. we hate the sin that they are committing.
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  4. #78
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    Originally posted by princeton
    nah, the most frequent "slurs" on TV are about being a man-- especially a married man.
    I think that is real life too. And you know what we (females) do not even consider it male bashing, we are not intentionally trying to knock you guys.

    My friends and I always end up talking about boyfriends, spouses, fathers, brothers, or just male friends and coworkers. It comes out like bashing them (of course we discuss the female family members and coworkers as well! :evilgrin: ).

    I wonder if it is because in general women will talk about things with other women that men do not bother to even think about bringing up with another man?

    We will gripe about a mans maners, clothing, selfishness (as we see it)...stuff like that. I don't think I have been around any men that will waste the time they have for male bonding by talking about how much their wives, girlfriends, mothers, sisters drive them completely nuts or over the edge.

    Do you guys do that?



    This thread has stretched to all sorts of corners!

    :
    Last edited by TeamDunn; 03-01-2004 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #79
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    TD, I was equating slurs with jokes. In real life, there aren't many husband slurs because a wife can't tell a good joke, right?

    (preparing to duck creek's comment...)

  6. #80
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Here's the thing about acting like there's only one set of moral absolutes and that they happen to be the set in your posession. For all those who come into a thread like this and make definitive statements about homosexuality being a sin and what not, there are those of us who are just as certain that you're morally, ethically and biblically wrong.

    I'm willing to kick around the public aspects of something like homosexuality because that's a societal issue, but when we get down to individual morality, I couldn't be less interested. I think Randy, with whom I disagree completely on this matter, was right about not being able to change anyone's mind on this one. When you've got conflicting moral certitudes at play, there isn't much room for discussion. At some point you've got to live and let live.

    As for gays in the clubhouse, the entire topic amuses me. Anyone who played enough organized sports has been on teams, in locker rooms and in the showers with someone who's gay. That's just simple math. There were 100+ guys on my high school track team and close to that on the football team. Now multiply that by four years. Toss in a decade-plus of swimming at the Y and I don't see the point in getting uptight over something that, despite the fact that I can't specifically say who's been gay in those locker rooms, has been a fairly consistent aspect of partaking in athletics.

    It's probably more of an issue with younger guys and sheltered athletes because they're naive and don't always have perspective from outside the bubble of their existence, but at the point where I'm at in life, I couldn't care less if a gay guy saw me getting changed at some point in the past. And if he had untoward thoughts about me afterward, I'll take that as a compliment.
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  7. #81
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    I believe that Chili made the comment that homosexuality does not tear homes apart but that simply isn't true. The guy that works in my office who is gay recently had his entire family (wife and 2 very beautiful daughters) move out on him...
    That's an infidelity issue, not a homosexuality issue. I agree that infidelity tears families apart.

    Gays and lesbians would be less likely to enter into doomed heterosexual marriages if society made them feel more comfortable about exiting the closet.

    This doesn't excuse cheating on your wife. But I think you would agree that homosexuality does not equal marital infidelity.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  8. #82
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M2
    Here's the thing about acting like there's only one set of moral absolutes and that they happen to be the set in your posession. For all those who come into a thread like this and make definitive statements about homosexuality being a sin and what not, there are those of us who are just as certain that you're morally, ethically and biblically wrong.

    Isn't what you stated an absolute statement? Isn't one opinion just as narrow as the other? Why can M2 make absolute statements in a thread but others with opinions with which he disagrees cannot? Or do you just want to goad to get the topic closed?

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    I was raised in a very religious family --a family that beleived in "moral absolutes"....a funny thing happened on th eway toward rightousness. The absolutes changed!!

    See my church (when i was a kid-i don't attend anymore) was Nazarene and Nazarenes dint believe in dancing or going to movies. My parents and the church were dead set against both of these practices. I couldn't go to gym class for 2 weeks cause we were learning how to square dance (im not kidding). I had to go home from 2 or 3 over nights cause my parents found out that the other parents were going to take me to a movie (a john wayne movie, no less).

    Anyways, i digress....many biblical principles were offered as reasons we did not attend these events. Many scriptures were quoted. Attending these functions were considered sins.

    10 years later the church changed its mind. They decided that attending these functions weren't taking you toward a life of destruction. What seemed to be a moral absolute 10 years earlier turned into soemthing less --and well, all the people that were condemned to serve a life in hell--they got a a reprieve.

    I said it on the other board --if we as humans have the grace to over look others and not judge --then surely a God can do the same --give him/her some credit. And if you believe that God doesn't have enough grace to overlook perceived sins -than what kind of faith do you have ...really.

  10. #84
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    OK M2 here is my "big" question. Who should have to change? Should 25 guys who would rather not have a homosexual bonding with them change or should the homosexual just keep quiet and live his sex life behind closed doors? Why should a baseball team of 24 people be forced to accept this? That is the big issue of this thread. I know that my beliefs while maybe just slightly in the majority in national polls (I have seen it go either way), are not going to sway you and I don't intend to, but if a team of 24 players that are straight +1 gay would rather not have an open homosexual playing for them then why can't you and the homosexual accept that?

    Let me guess, "They feel like they can't express themselves or be themselves, or feel under bondage." WHy does the homosexual have to be allowed to let his sex life come out? There are lots of hidden things in a clubhouse and many of them are best left unsaid... How many rapists, burgulars, wife beaters, child abusers, steriod users, drug users, adulterers whatever are keeping secrets and don't feel the need to "come out." I know you don't think that homosexuality is wrong so therefore they shouldn't feel bad about telling, but- and here is an important point - slightly over 50% +or - of the population doesn't agree with you and will never agree with you.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  11. #85
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    My friend that I went to see Passion with Friday night told me that at one time her church did not allow people to see movies, she attends a Nazarene church. I thought that was kind of odd...and I wonder if the *rules* were not already changed if this movie would have changed it.

    As society changes and new generations enter adulthood (the decision makers) many *rules* and laws are going to change. With each generation things get more accepting....it will continue on instead of going backwards (at least in my opinion).


  12. #86
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by J "Cooper"
    I was raised in a very religious family --a family that beleived in "moral absolutes"....a funny thing happened on th eway toward rightousness. The absolutes changed!!

    See my church (when i was a kid-i don't attend anymore) was Nazarene and Nazarenes dint believe in dancing or going to movies...... And if you believe that God doesn't have enough grace to overlook perceived sins -than what kind of faith do you have ...really.

    One major problem with your idea here. God did not destroy an entire city for watching a movie or dancing. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for well you know what already. Many churches practice radical ideas such as not allowing dancing but they are not grounded in any kind of scripture. In fact numerous times in the Bible people danced including David. Man can come up with opinions and try to squeeze their ideas into the Bible. It is impossible to do a study of the Bible and not see his feeling toward homosexuality.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  13. #87
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    Originally posted by traderumor
    Why can M2 make absolute statements in a thread but others with opinions with which he disagrees cannot?
    Whom is being censored, traderumor? Everyone has had many opportunities to express their opinions.
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  14. #88
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    I'm sure the questions you asked were asked many times with regards to Blacks. Why should whites have to share a public water fountain or restroom with blacks? Why should whites have to sit on a bus with blacks, move the blacks to the back.

    That stuff was not right and in years to come the same questions you asked will not be considered right.

    Why should *normal* kids have to put up with having a mentally retarted child in their class? I would hope the majority of people would think I just made a HORRIBLE statement and that the statement is WRONG!

    It is not a matter of changing. It is a matter of accepting people for who they are so long as who they are does not threaten you or your loved ones. Accepting a child molester to run a day care, I would never ask that!!!!! Why is it so difficult to accept someone who is attracted to or has relationships with people of the same sex?

    I would rather see a man be honest with himself and admit that he is gay rather than put on some charade and fake it, just for the sake of people that are uncomfortable with homosexuality.

    I realize there is no changing anyones minds that have strong convictions one way or the other. I am just curious what the root is to not agreeing with it or why you think what someone else does is bad for you and your family.

    Oh, and that attitude of keeping things that are *embarrassing* to yourself and not sharing the truth with others is why generations of child molesting has occurred. Passed on from parent to child or grandparent to child (or other relative but you get the point). These were things that you just did not discuss. Wives overlooked what their husbands did. We have ended up with some seriously damaged children and adults because of people not being able to tell the truth because most of society does not want to deal with those issues.


    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    OK M2 here is my "big" question. Who should have to change? Should 25 guys who would rather not have a homosexual bonding with them change or should the homosexual just keep quiet and live his sex life behind closed doors? Why should a baseball team of 24 people be forced to accept this? That is the big issue of this thread. I know that my beliefs while maybe just slightly in the majority in national polls (I have seen it go either way), are not going to sway you and I don't intend to, but if a team of 24 players that are straight +1 gay would rather not have an open homosexual playing for them then why can't you and the homosexual accept that?

  15. #89
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    It use to be a major problem in society when someone "stepped out" on their spouse. Today it is no big deal. Does this make it right? Just because we change doesn't mean it is for the good.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  16. #90
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Originally posted by traderumor
    Isn't what you stated an absolute statement? Isn't one opinion just as narrow as the other? Why can M2 make absolute statements in a thread but others with opinions with which he disagrees cannot? Or do you just want to goad to get the topic closed?
    All I stated was that my absolutes and yours differ and that they're never going to coincide. Obviously one view is as narrow as the other, which was my point in the first place, thus my "live and let live" statement.

    Paul, you seem to think that every non-gay athlete in the locker room would agree with you. I can guarantee you that's wrong. You'd get a mix of people who'd be fine with it, others who don't care, others who are a little uneasy yet can deal with it and others who completely flip out about it. Quite frankly, I'm not so sure the flipped out group would form the majority or anything close to it. They'd whine the loudest, but that would elicit a quick "shut your hole and do your job" if I was coaching. I'm a firm believer that whiny teams are losing teams.

    And, as I said, I've been in plenty of locker rooms and I'm not so naive as to think there haven't been plenty of gay guys in those locker rooms while I was there. So how nutty should I get about something that's probably happened more times than I can count? Hasn't affected my life one way or the other.
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