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Thread: Homosexuality, baseball's biggest taboo

  1. #106
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    God hates sin
    Does God *hate*, or does mankind hate and attribute it to God?



    But anyway, before we get too far off-topic, I don't think anything can be done about *forcing* players to accept a homosexual teammate any more than you could force a player to accept a player who's an egotistic jerk.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 03-01-2004 at 07:26 PM.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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  3. #107
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Redsland
    God is love. God is mercy. God is just. God is light. God is peace. God hates fags.

    See anything there that doesn't belong?

    God loves homosexuals... Somewhere along the lines you think that saying something is wrong means you hate them. I will repeat that I nor God hates the sinner just what they do. How is saying that someones actions are wrong get you to the point that now I or God hates them. A parent that says no to their child hates them I guess also...

    From Johnny Footstool..
    That sounds more like an earthly tyrant than an omnipotent diety.

    I cannot believe that God would condemn people for doing what they feel in their hearts is right.

    You know this sounds really good but is probably the weakest argument that I have ever heard on the subject. I'm sorry that this will probably sound really bad but this logic would mean that nothing is wrong. All sinners could justify their sin because they feel in their heart that is is right. By your logic Hitler was not wrong. All racist are correct. A murderer and rapists would not be wrong. There would be chaos. Your logic is what God has turned out to be to a lot of people but it is not the God that is in the Bible.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  4. #108
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    I'm sorry that this will probably sound really bad but this logic would mean that nothing is wrong. All sinners could justify their sin because they feel in their heart that is is right.
    I don't subscribe to relativism -- I do believe that there are some absolutes. For instance, I believe it is a sin to hurt another person. But I don't believe that God is going to condemn everyone who hurts anyone else. Punish, yes, but the punishment will be tempered with mercy accordingly. I don't believe in eternal damnation.

    Your logic is what God has turned out to be to a lot of people but it is not the God that is in the Bible
    The God that is in the Bible is full of human qualities and contradictions. Jealousy and vengence, IMO, are not divine qualities.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  5. #109
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    Why does the homosexual have to be allowed to let his sex life come out?
    But what if the tables were turned? Although it's far-fetched, assume that every baseball roster included just one "straight" player and 24 homosexual players? Would you then still say, "Why does the heterosexual have to be allowed to let his sex life come out?"?

    It's the old "Walk A Mile In My Shoes"adage.

  6. #110
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    The God that is in the Bible is full of human qualities and contradictions. Jealousy and vengence, IMO, are not divine qualities.
    This is totally backwards. How ironic, the creature telling the Creator that He has qualities that aren't divine. The Bible says that we are made in the image of God.

  7. #111
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by traderumor
    This is totally backwards. How ironic, the creature telling the Creator that He has qualities that aren't divine. The Bible says that we are made in the image of God.

    That is really good.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  8. #112
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    This is totally backwards. How ironic, the creature telling the Creator that He has qualities that aren't divine. The Bible says that we are made in the image of God.
    Again, you may be right, but there's a whole other school of thought which maintains that every god (ever since the early animists, at least) has been the invention in the human image and by the human brain; in short, that man created God, not vice versa.

  9. #113
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Hmn. Interesting topic.

    Personally, I do buy the concept that some folks may be genetically predispositioned for a certain behavior.

    I don't buy that behavior itself is caused by genetic predisposition.

    It's not the same as a child being born blind. He/she doesn't choose not to see. It's not the same as some other genetic defect affecting an individual absent of choice.

    That's the crux to me. Behavior and choice.

    A child can be born with a predisposition for alcoholism. But that doesn't mean that a later-in-life drunk-driving episode while suffering from chronic alcoholism is a necessary result of that predisposition.

    It's a result of choice based on preference.

    Having sex with anyone- male or female- is a choice. I'm not talking about expecting anyone to abstain from sexual activity, even though there are those who choose to do that against natural predispositions (i.e. heterosexual relationships).

    I can absolutely understand the point of view of those who feel that homosexual behavior is a deviant lifestyle choice.

    I want to be VERY clear that I use that word only because the behavior in question deviates from the norm.

    Of course, we also choose to believe and worship necessary based on what we've learned. God gave us that ability to choose. Above all else, the ability to choose, while being fully aware of right and wrong, is His greatest gift.

    Hmn. Right and wrong. Geez, that's a slippery slope.

    I know what I feel to be morally and ethically right and wrong. But my personal belief system doesn't allow me to impose those moral and ethical constrictions on someone else who may reasonably believe the opposite. Nor does my belief system allow me to accept that my interpretation of Scripture is the only acceptable reasonable interpretation.

    I understand the minority concept that the choice of a homosexual lifestyle is driven by God's will simply because humans possess the ability to choose. I believe choice-based decisions to be reasonable as long as those choices do not interfere with another's ability to choose (i.e. choices resulting in injury to others). If decisions are made with full knowledge that you will knowingly and willingly harm others, all bets are off.

    I simply don't see a homosexual lifestyle to be a choice that knowingly and willingly harms others even if I don't choose that lifestyle based on preference. Whether or not they are doing God's will is immaterial to me.

    I completely understand this logic pattern:

    1) I prefer
    2) I choose
    3) God gives me the ability to choose
    4) I do not knowingly or willingly harm

    If homosexuality is a sin, they will atone. But atonement is not necessarily payment or punishment. It's making things right. That includes asking for forgiveness at the appropriate time when the Truth is revealed.

    IMO, that holds true for Catholics and Methodists, Lutherans and Baptists, Buddhists and Muslims, Jews and Mormons, Agnostics and Athiests- whether they be heterosexual or homosexual.

    I don't believe for a second that I'll know that Truth until I meet God. Until then, I choose to tolerate and forgive and accept. Because, in my humble ignrorance, I feel that's what God wants me to do.

    He'll tell me if I'm wrong.
    Last edited by SteelSD; 03-01-2004 at 08:26 PM.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  10. #114
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    perfect post on the subject Steel. i agree whole heartedly.
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  11. #115
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    SteelSD

    God doesn't have to tell you that some things are right or wrong again. He already did so in the Bible. Most everyone agrees that killing is a sin. Why? because it is in black white and red in the Bible and because thousands of years of law and moral standards have dictated this. It is no different with homosexuality. It is very clear that God did not like the sin of homosexuality. We have only recently as a society changed our philosophies toward this. Until just last year I believe some states had laws against this. As stated earlier, many "sins" are just man's ideas such as dancing or going to the movies. Sexual immorality is not an opinion... it is detailed throughout the scriptures.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  12. #116
    Pagan/Asatru Ravenlord's Avatar
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    it is a sin, the Bible says it i think 14 times. but to wheather or not it is a choice or a pre-disposition, we'll probably never know. it's probabl a little from column A and little from column B.
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  13. #117
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    God doesn't have to tell you that some things are right or wrong again. He already did so in the Bible. Most everyone agrees that killing is a sin. Why? because it is in black white and red in the Bible and because thousands of years of law and moral standards have dictated this.
    I think I've adequately covered this:

    I believe choice-based decisions to be reasonable as long as those choices do not interfere with another's ability to choose (i.e. choices resulting in injury to others)

    It is no different with homosexuality. It is very clear that God did not like the sin of homosexuality. We have only recently as a society changed our philosophies toward this. Until just last year I believe some states had laws against this. As stated earlier, many "sins" are just man's ideas such as dancing or going to the movies. Sexual immorality is not an opinion... it is detailed throughout the scriptures.
    Ah yes, as is the demand that all male homosexuals be summarily executed. Is that what you truly believe? Female homosexuals? There's no real reference to that behavior, but should we lump them in with the guys?

    If not, I'm assuming that you're not interpreting the scriptures as direct reflections of God's word.

    BTW- There have also been laws on the books allowing folks who saw Native Americans congregating in a group to shoot them because they qualified as an "uprising".

    "Immorality" is dependant on belief system. I have absolutely no issue with allowing you your belief system, as long as it's not imposed on me as fact.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  14. #118
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    "But when was the last time you heard a derisive comment directed at Muslims from a member of the media?"

    This illustrates "concretely" that nothing in this universe exists except as a perception. We live in essentially the same culture and I see slur after misrepresentation after slur after propagandizing against Muslims and you see Christian-slurring. The twain, I suspect shall never meet on this issue. Best to walk away from it I suppose.

  15. #119
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    God doesn't have to tell you that some things are right or wrong again. He already did so in the Bible.
    Do you realize that most people in this world do not believe in the divinity of the Bible, myself included? Are we just left out in the cold and forced to adhere to a value system coming from a source we have no belief in?

    As hard as this is to believe, I think killing is wrong and I didn't need the Bible to tell me so.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  16. #120
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    "As hard as this is to believe, I think killing is wrong and I didn't need the Bible to tell me so."

    Absolutely. Great post, MWM.

    Non-sectarian morality exists. It's called the law, the categorical imperative, the spirit that drives the social contract.


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