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Thread: Homosexuality, baseball's biggest taboo

  1. #121
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    They'd whine the loudest, but that would elicit a quick "shut your hole and do your job" if I was coaching.
    Sorry to go back to a quote from a page ago, but I thought this brought up an interesting point.

    Everyone in a major league clubhouse is there to do a JOB.

    That's forgotten constantly.

    Everyone dreams of being a major league baseball player their entire life, so they forget that the people that make it are employees.

    Adam Dunn gets a paycheck every two weeks, and sticks it in the bank. Just like you. Just like everyone.

    How would it work out if an employee of IBM was gay and his co-workers flipped out?

    The co-workers would be fired. And quickly I imagine.

    But with baseball we talk about the chemistry, and the bonding, and the blah blah blah.

    As far as the basic rules go, a position as a major league baseball player shouldn't be any different than a position in an office. Or a factory. Or a restaurant.

    Anyone thinking otherwise is forgetting that these people are employees.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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  3. #122
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    This is totally backwards. How ironic, the creature telling the Creator that He has qualities that aren't divine. The Bible says that we are made in the image of God.
    You've got it totally backwards. I didn't say God isn't divine -- quite the contrary. God is perfection.

    I said the Bible portrays God with *human* qualities such as jealousy and rage.

    Aren't jealousy and rage parts of "The Seven Deadly Sins"?
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  4. #123
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Johnny,

    It seems you misunderstand that God reveals himself in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are God-breathed, which is known as the principal of inspiration. So whatever is revealed about God in Scripture He is saying about Himself. As for "seven deadly sins," the Bible does not name any such thing. There is one deadly sin. The first one is sufficient to demand divine justice from a Holy God.

    Furthermore, God speaks of Himself as "jealous" in the sense that He demands that He alone be worshiped, in the sense of the second commandment that says one should worship no other gods. As for God exhibiting rage or wrath, He is not some out of control tyrant that wakes up in a bad mood one day and starts knocking off sinners. His anger is always just and is fueled by sin, which He hates. His anger is always righteous and based on justice.

  5. #124
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Personally, I do buy the concept that some folks may be genetically predispositioned for a certain behavior.
    I find it rather ironic that you feel this way. You are one of the loudest voices on the board in favor of statistical evaluation of baseball. The statistical evidence that some behaviors (including homosexuality) are genetic is very strong.

    It has long been accepted that spousal abuse runs in families. It has generally been assumed that the children saw the mother (usually) being abused and learned that the behavior was acceptable. There is a growing body of evidence that the biochemical "off switch" that most of us have is deficient in these people. Their anger control mechanism simply does not work.

    A very small portion of men are born with 2 "Y" chromasomes. However, you would almost never meet one on the street and should be glad that you don't. Nearly all of them are in prison for violent crime at a young age.

    Anyway, my point here is that genetics certainly does control behavior. The statistical evidence shows that homosexuality occurs at a rate that would be suggestive of a heritable trait.

    Oh, one other point. I've seen AIDS used several times as showing that homosexuallity is harmful to other people. AIDS is indeed more prevalent in the United States in the homosexual population. That is due to the fact that the "Typhoid Mary" of AIDS in the U.S. was homosexual. In Africa, where the virus originated, it is equally distributed among homo- and heterosexuals.

  6. #125
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    traderumor,

    I understand that we are taught the Bible is the one true word of God. I also know that every religion has their own Bible, and they all claim theirs to be the one true word of God, too. If we were born and raised in India, or Saudi Arabia, we would be arguing just as vehemently for a different religion.

    Maybe there is some truth that goes beyond just what's in the Bible.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  7. #126
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MWM
    Do you realize that most people in this world do not believe in the divinity of the Bible, myself included? Are we just left out in the cold and forced to adhere to a value system coming from a source we have no belief in?

    As hard as this is to believe, I think killing is wrong and I didn't need the Bible to tell me so.
    Did you read my post? I know some people don't believe in the Bible and that is fine. I know that but did you continue reading my post? I said

    God doesn't have to tell you that some things are right or wrong again. He already did so in the Bible. Most everyone agrees that killing is a sin. Why? because it is in black white and red in the Bible and because thousands of years of law and moral standards have dictated this.

    The rest of the post says just what you said... thousands of years of law and moral standards.....
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  8. #127
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Johnny Footstool
    traderumor,

    I understand that we are taught the Bible is the one true word of God. I also know that every religion has their own Bible, and they all claim theirs to be the one true word of God, too. If we were born and raised in India, or Saudi Arabia, we would be arguing just as vehemently for a different religion.

    Maybe there is some truth that goes beyond just what's in the Bible.
    Johnny,

    That is obviously the response I expected. The only problem with your thoughts is that the canon of Scriptures known as the Holy Bible stand up to scrutiny while other religions holy books do not. A simple search engine would reveal hundreds of links that provide evidence that the Scriptures are divine rather than human in origin and many, many links detailing problems with other religions' holy books.

    However, I realize that at the end of the day, there is always a faith element to accepting the infallibility and inspiration of Scripture that it claims itself to be (see II Timothy 3:15-16). But that faith is not a blind leap into a dark chasm, but is based on historical factual evidence that is so overwhelming that skeptics who have started out attempting to once and for all show that the Bible does not stand up to scrutiny have come away convinced that the Bible is indeed what it claims to be. One name that comes to mind immediately is a man named Josh McDowell, an atheist attorney who set out to disprove the claims of Scripture and came away writing a classic treatise on the subject known as "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." He would be a great place to start for any skeptic that has a problem with Scripture's claim that it is God's Word, God's only Word.

  9. #128
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    The rest of the post says just what you said... thousands of years of law and moral standards.....
    For thousands of years the law and moral standards permitted people to buy and sell slaves. The Bible (in Leviticus) not only condones slave ownership, but provides a smattering of rules to regulate it.

    Today we know that slavery makes baby Jesus cry. Despite "thousands of years" of precedence.

    We learn. We grow.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  10. #129
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Originally posted by paulrichjr
    Most everyone agrees that killing is a sin. Why? because it is in black white and red in the Bible and because thousands of years of law and moral standards have dictated this.
    Not for for nothing, but killing was illegal in most cultures long before Judaism (and later Christianity) showed up on the map.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  11. #130
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Redsland
    For thousands of years the law and moral standards permitted people to buy and sell slaves. The Bible (in Leviticus) not only condones slave ownership, but provides a smattering of rules to regulate it.

    Today we know that slavery makes baby Jesus cry. Despite "thousands of years" of precedence.

    We learn. We grow.
    Here you go Redsland, an answer I gave to this issue a while back. It seems to be a common but easily explainable misconception about slavery
    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...&pagenumber=17

    Johnny,

    There's also a link to the issue of the divine origin of the Holy Bible at the top of the page I think.

  12. #131
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Redsland
    Today we know that slavery makes baby Jesus cry. Despite "thousands of years" of precedence.
    I thought it was lies that made baby Jesus cry?

    I think what we have established here is that some people don't want an openly gay player in the locker room because they are afraid of being "converted" or getting "checked out" or even asked out on a date by the player. It certainly can't be because of any moral qualms because adulterers, drug users, alcoholics, wife beaters, racists and thieves, among others, are welcomed and even figuratively embraced by other players, fans, the media and front office types.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  13. #132
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by M2
    Not for for nothing, but killing was illegal in most cultures long before Judaism (and later Christianity) showed up on the map.
    Which speaks to a basic moral law that is written on all of our hearts that is put there by the Creator. Plus, as we see with Cain's killing of Able, he did not have the 10 commandments to tell him killing was wrong. What was his source, as the first children born to the first couple? There are only a few options. And I don't recall Cain debating with God about not knowing it was wrong to kill his brother. He just didn't like the consequences.

  14. #133
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Simple question: should legislators consult the Bible when making or changing law?

    It's not a difficult question. And please don't respond with the boiler plate, "you can't expect these people to check their religion at the door when they are elected." I certaily don't expect them to forget their religious values when they serve in office. BUt this is very specific: should they consult the Bible when deciding law? In other words, if proposed legislation doesn't coincide with the Bible's teachings, should that be the basis for a vote of "NO"?
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  15. #134
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    A simple search engine would reveal hundreds of links that provide evidence that the Scriptures are divine rather than human in origin and many, many links detailing problems with other religions' holy books.
    No offense, traderumor, but I've heard many of those arguments before, and they are as circular and slanted as they come. The only "proof" most of them offer is that the Bible says it is divine, so it must be.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  16. #135
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Johnny Footstool
    No offense, traderumor, but I've heard many of those arguments before, and they are as circular and slanted as they come. The only "proof" most of them offer is that the Bible says it is divine, so it must be.
    No offense taken. If you have heard fulfillment of prophecies, esp. those regarding Christ, archaeolgical evidence, internal consistency despite many writers writing over a wide time span, and the evidence of changed lives, I'm not sure how you could conclude those are circular arguments. Those are objective, verifiable proofs which provide a mountain of evidence regarding the veracity of Scripture. Did you see the link I mentioned above?


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