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Thread: Just why was Reitsma traded?

  1. #16
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    [Reitsma said] They saw me in the long run as a set-up guy, someone they could replace with a veteran like Todd Jones
    This is probably very, very close to the truth.. whether you like the trade or not,
    the new regime doesn't really seem to value the bullpen very much at all. And it's not all about money either. They could've gotten some cheap veterans this offseason who
    would've been much more effective than Jones/Van Poopel/etc. Sure, it would've
    cost more than minimum salary, but it wouldn't have broken the bank.

    I think it was M2 that said that if a club is resigned to the fact that it can never afford to carry a 1.5-2 million reliever like Sullivan/Heredia/White.. then you might as well
    accept that the team will never contend. Even KC could afford Sullivan.

    There is no plan, other than to cut costs. In a few years, DanO will get the ax, and we'll be told the "new guy" will do it right this time. Now, I know DanO is trying as hard as he can. Don't get me wrong, but unless we see a major cash infusion into the draft, no GM is going to be able to win under the Allen/Lindner regime.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  3. #17
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler
    In this case, the Reds got two pitchers with roughly the same talent level as Reitsma.
    If this is true, why aren't those two guys on the 25-man roster?
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  4. #18
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone
    If this is true, why aren't those two guys on the 25-man roster?

    They will be one day, have some success and be dealt for 4 minor league pitchers..it's a cycle of fun
    Go Gators!

  5. #19
    Dunnilicious creek14's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    They will be one day, have some success and be dealt for 4 minor league pitchers..it's a cycle of fun
    I beg to differ.

    By then we will have traded Dunn, Kearns, Jr and Casey, so Bong et al will be traded for a couple good RBI guys and some left handed power.
    Will trade this space for a #1 starter.

  6. #20
    Do it! TheBurn's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    So... has anyone been hitting our Bong in the minors?
    Has our Bong been gettin' lit up?
    :whack: Sorry... couldn't help myself!
    It'll never happen again!

  7. #21
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    No topic is done without a Bong joke
    Go Gators!

  8. #22
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Even KC could afford Sullivan.
    Sullivan is the 7th highest paid Royal, he would have been the 8th highest paid Red, which he was on the Reds last year. He also only pitched 64 innings last year as a setup guy who doesn't log saves, in fact he's pitched more innings without a start or 10 saves than any player since 1999 by a large margin. I'd say the calculated guess on the Reds end was that his innings would decline and they didn't want to pay over 2 million for.

    Code:
    CAREER
    1999-2003
    
    GAMES STARTED <= 1
    SAVES <= 10
    ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    INNINGS PITCHED                 IP       GS       SV       ERA    
    1    Scott Sullivan            466          0        7     0.64   
    2    Rick White                407          1        6     0.37   
    3    Paul Quantrill            369.1        0        5     1.44   
    4    Felix Rodriguez           358.1        0        5     1.39   
    5    Paul Shuey                336.2        0        9     1.35   
    6    Rheal Cormier             327.2        0        2     0.78   
    7    Scott Sauerbeck           325.1        0        5     0.71   
    8    Gabe White                313.2        0        5     0.47   
    9    Justin Speier             309.1        0       10     0.23   
    10   Steve Reed                306.1        0        2     1.07

  9. #23
    Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    The Reitsma trade was made on sound philosophical grounds. We may all differ in regards to whether we like the returns, the immediate impact, the Reds' evaluation of Reitsma's ceiling etc... However, in concept the Reds traded a player they (accurately or not) considered a setup reliever on a team without contention aspirations, for what they perceived as 2 legitimate young starting pitching prospects with relatively foreseeable ETAs. There is plenty of room for us to debate whether the Reds accurately estimated Reitsma's upside and role, whether their evaluations of Bong and Nelson as future rotation candidates were solid assessments, whether or not it was wise to further deplete a completely diluted bullpen, and what effect Reitsma's arbitration process/salary factored into the scenario. However, in principle the Reds translated a non-closer into a LHP and RHP who had both experienced some success beyond the low minors. Regardless of all of the valid reasons to like or dislike the particulars, it was made on a solid foundation. IMO

    By contrast, compare the fact that we shipped off the proven commodities of Williamson, Sullivan, Heredia, White, Mercker *COMBINED* and only received 1 pitcher who had ever pitched beyond the low minors in return (Belisle) and his value was still deflated at the time because of past injury. Their circumstances were different than Reitsma's, but they were all still viable, valuable and proven MLB relievers - and they netted a total yield of nothing. By contrast to those non-entities, Reitsma's trade landed a motherlode.

    I don't have high aspirations for Bong (no pun), and think Nelson is likely middle (rather than top) of the rotation material... but at least I can identify with the philosophy of this trade. That's more than I can say for any Reds trade of the past year with the exception the Boone (very solid, but could have been better if we add White without asking for monetary compensation), Guillen (nothing of much value but he had to be moved) and Scott Dunn (for DJ) trades. We are feeling the affects of the Reitsma trade much more because of the ill-conceived salary dump trades which destroyed the bullpen, long before he was ever dealt. His absence, and the struggles which have ensued, just emphasize that.

    PS: and maybe princeton is right that Reitsma will eventually evolve into the elite closer that we actually needed, without recognizing it. However, it's also likely that this "rebuilding" team couldn't produce a viable rotation quickly enough to need that type of closer, nor could they still afford him (according to their M.O.) by the time he did emerge in that role. Like the trade or not (I can see where both sides are coming from) at least it's a trade which can be rationalized and understood, in concept.
    Last edited by Stormy; 04-23-2004 at 03:25 PM.

  10. #24
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    WOY.. let me ask you this.. Are you satisfied with the makeup of our pen this year?

    Personally, I think that with a new stadium, they owe us better pitchers than Van Poppel, Jones, Reith, and Norton. Maybe Sully wasn't the specific guy, but you must admit that they really bunged the pen this year. You were one of the loudest praisers
    of dumping the entire pen last year.. You've got to admit that we are worse off, particularly since the money "saved" has not been used to help other areas.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #25
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    You've got to admit that we are worse off, particularly since the money "saved" has not been used to help other areas.
    Except there's a direct quote above from O'Brien saying that the money IS being used in other areas: Player Development.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  12. #26
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    WOY.. let me ask you this.. Are you satisfied with the makeup of our pen this year?

    Personally, I think that with a new stadium, they owe us better pitchers than Van Poppel, Jones, Reith, and Norton. Maybe Sully wasn't the specific guy, but you must admit that they really bunged the pen this year. You were one of the loudest praisers
    of dumping the entire pen last year.. You've got to admit that we are worse off, particularly since the money "saved" has not been used to help other areas.
    Small sample size, can't really say as of yet.

    But I remember reading this 4-18-03

    I think the season is so young, the jury is still out..

    BUT The problem is though that the Reds have not been able to put together a decent bullpen this year so far by using replacements.. The Reds struck gold a couple times (Shaw, Brantley).. but for the most part, their bread and butter guys in the bullpen have been guys with a good pedigree (Sullivan, White, Belinda, etc.)..


    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...hlight=bullpen

  13. #27
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor
    Except there's a direct quote above from O'Brien saying that the money IS being used in other areas: Player Development.
    What does player development mean?
    draft? minors? scouting?

    Wonder what Allen thinks it means
    Go Gators!

  14. #28
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone
    If this is true, why aren't those two guys on the 25-man roster?
    Poor wording on my part, I guess. I think that both Bong and Nelson have the same level of potential as Reitsma did when we got him from the Red Sox. Sure, Reitsma has the experience edge now, but I'm in it for the long haul. I don't think that the current team has enough of the right parts to be contenders. Reitsma would help win the Reds some extra games this year, no doubt. On the other hand, will those extra games be enough to win the division or wild card? I don't think so. A lot of chips would have to fall the Reds way for Reitsma's performance to matter next year, too. In that case, two potential Reitsmas in 2006 are better than one right now.

    I like Adam Dunn and Austin Kearns as much as anyone here. I really hope that the Reds are able to sign them to long term contracts soon. However, if the opportunity arises to trade either of them for two prospects who are crushing the ball in AA and showing superior batting eye (think Adam Dunn circa 2001), then the Reds should do that trade as well.

    In order to have sustainable success, the Reds need to have a constant stream of top notch prospects. They can only afford to pay big money to about 7-8 absolutely essential roster spots. The rest of the team must be filled with inexpensive talent. Right now, the Reds only have about three or four of the essential players with only a little help on the horizon. They need the talent, and they need to free up the money to be able to keep the three or four that they already have.

  15. #29
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    I for one am very happy about this trade I also believe that Bubba is a middle of the rotation guy but what the hell as long as the REDS can win what does it matter Bubba needs a little more time to fine tune his game at this level and you just may see a pretty good pitcher Pluse pitching will humble you real quick but I for one really like him being with the REDS

  16. #30
    Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Re: Just why was Reitsma traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by EX BRAVEDAD
    I for one am very happy about this trade I also believe that Bubba is a middle of the rotation guy but what the hell as long as the REDS can win what does it matter Bubba needs a little more time to fine tune his game at this level and you just may see a pretty good pitcher Pluse pitching will humble you real quick but I for one really like him being with the REDS
    I'm thrilled that he's here ExBravedad. I've heard nothing but good things about him, his abilities and his performance (though I've only seen him pitch once, so far, so I'm basically going on secondhand information and scouting reports). He's a much needed and welcome addition to an organization which is going to need numerous rotation-ready arms in the near future (as Haynes, Wilson, Lidle) come off the books... and I'd guess Bubba Nelson is a big part of that future rotation design plan. I just didn't want to give the impression that we should expect Bubba to be knocking on the door of the top of the rotation in the immediate future - as others were asking why is he not already here etc...


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