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Thread: Small Market

  1. #46
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    But if Linder opened up his own pockets (which a majority of owners are not doing, but instead are relying on revenue generated by the organization itself, along with lucrative cable/TV deals, etc.), and went out and spent 15 Mil and acquired a couple good rotation guys, then how/where would that revenue be generated to help him recoup/offset that?

    Gate receipts? I doubt it.
    You do it in a "contract year," i.e. the year that all of your media contracts are up for renegotiation. Ideally, you build the buzz with all kinds of positive publicity (including getting your media outlets to show some positivity and excitement about the team) and making some moves the moment that the previous season is over, then in your contract year you perform. Yeah, it's a heavy investment in one year (well, heavy for a "small-market"), but when it comes time to renegotiate your cable and radio deals, it'll pay off in spades.

    I think.
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  3. #47
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    He said that since the Reds are a small market team you always have to consider the financial aspect when considering a release of this nature.
    And just think, about a week ago, DanO said that Haynes' contract had nothing to do with the decision not to release him. DanO bends the truth just as much as Allen and Bowden, not all fans realize it yet.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  4. #48
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    And just think, about a week ago, DanO said that Haynes' contract had nothing to do with the decision not to release him.
    as they have now released him, it didn't

  5. #49
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    as they have now released him, it didn't
    But didn't he just say that the contract always plays a part since we are a "small market"... That's what bothers me.. Just like it bothered me last year when Allen was crying about the financial burden of having 3 guys on the DL simultaneously..

    Releasing Haynes and replacing him with someone making negligible salary should have a financial impact so neglegible, you don't worry about it if it helps you win more games.. unless you are the Reds, that is.

    If finances had nothing to do about it, they would've cut him before the season began.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #50
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    You do it in a "contract year," i.e. the year that all of your media contracts are up for renegotiation. Ideally, you build the buzz with all kinds of positive publicity (including getting your media outlets to show some positivity and excitement about the team) and making some moves the moment that the previous season is over, then in your contract year you perform. Yeah, it's a heavy investment in one year (well, heavy for a "small-market"), but when it comes time to renegotiate your cable and radio deals, it'll pay off in spades.

    I think.
    I agree with this, but I don't think you can only do it in the contract year. I think you would have to do it for at least two years, maybe three. You would have to kick money in the year before the K year, the year of the K, and the year after the K. Sorry - K is abbr. for contract. So its actually a heavy investment for three years.

    However, it would be worth it. The Reds are in a unique position, and anyone on this board knows it. If the Reds consistently put a winning team on the field attendence would slowly but steadily increase, media outlets would be bombarded with stories about the Reds, this board's membership would skyrocket, etc. In short, because Cincinnati is baseball crazy a consistent winner would force the communications K's, when they came up, to bow to the Reds superior position. Its demand really - the Reds fanbase, crazy from the consistently good product on the field, would translate into TV outlets competiting for them (and advertisers wanting to advertise with the Reds) and the media K would be greater.

    Now, the Reds could do this, just like Cleveland did, because of the fanbase. A team like Oakland or Florida probably not - the fans just aren't the same. Surprisingly Minnesota hasn't been able to do this either, but that might be because of Pohlad (who is worse than even Lindner), it could be because mediocre pitching, mediocre hitting and excellent defense, while they win with it, isn't exciting to watch, I don't know - but in the late eighties that place rocked - but it was also a different economic climate.

    But I believe the Reds could pull this off just because of the fans. Reds fans are loyal and they love baseball (like St. Louis fans) and good, fun teams that win will eventually put people in the stands, will cause message boards such as this to explode, force the DDN, Post and Enquirer to devote more space to the Reds, increase revenues at sports bars - it will make baseball the thing again. And this would allow for better media revenue and allow for higher payrolls.

    But its gotta be for more than a year - people won't come back for only a year. Thats why the Reds blew it with the opening of the GAB. Bowden saw it, and thought Griffey would keep them competitively good through the GAB and this would have caused the boom I described above, but it didn't work when he couldn't get pitching (not to mention being forced to hire Boone).

    That was a really long post to say so little - sorry!
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  7. #51
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    But didn't he just say that the contract always plays a part since we are a "small market"... That's what bothers me.. Just like it bothered me last year when Allen was crying about the financial burden of having 3 guys on the DL simultaneously..

    Releasing Haynes and replacing him with someone making negligible salary should have a financial impact so neglegible, you don't worry about it if it helps you win more games.. unless you are the Reds, that is.

    If finances had nothing to do about it, they would've cut him before the season began.
    they replaced Jimmy not with a kid, but with a guy that probably makes quite a bit more than ML minimum because he was a better choice than stressing a kid. Once again, this is the very kind of decision that should make you happy. Instead, you continue to glum around. I don't get it. There are so many more finance-inspired moves to be dejected about, starting with Reitsma. Leave this one alone.

    in fact, most teams would have moved Haynes to AAA just in case there was a rash of injuries or he suddenly showed a sign of life. That's the frugal move-- costs nothing. The Reds didn't do that. They cut bait. It's very uncharacteristic

    the problem in the beginning was a lack of good options, not a lack of will. This wasn't a case where Haynes was kept even though he'd been outpitched-- out of a cast of suspects, Jimmy was not apparently worse than the next guy, and he had been better than those guys at a more recent time.

    Look back to March-- In hindsight, who should you have used instead of Haynes? From the getgo, I had Haynes in AAA, Myers in the pen and TVP starting, but I'm not crowing because those guys still bite, they just might bite less hard. But they might not. Myers had a bad camp-- couldn't even outdistinguish Phil Norton. TVP is arguably less distinguished than Jimmy-- both have had one decent year, and Jimmy's was more recent. Sanchez seemed a choice, but he hasn't even been that good in Louisville. Really, the best possibility may turn out to have been Seth Etherton. Seth Etherton.

    Or you could have started a kid from the beginning of the year. But nobody's ready. Me, I'm happy that the Reds didn't overpromote a kid, either now or at the end of spring. Bowden might have brought up a guy and cited a Blyleven curve, a Hoffman change

    on that, Kudos to the FO. On most other things, bleah.

  8. #52
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    Re: Small Market

    Instead, you continue to glum around. I don't get it.
    Nor I.

  9. #53
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    in fact, most teams would have moved Haynes to AAA just in case there was a rash of injuries or he suddenly showed a sign of life. That's the frugal move-- costs nothing. The Reds didn't do that. They cut bait. It's very uncharacteristic.
    I doubt think they have this option.. Haynes could've refused the assignment and still got paid. I am pretty sure he has enough service time to stop the Reds from sending him to AAA against his will..

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    the problem in the beginning was a lack of good options
    .
    I agree that the options to replace Haynes are not very good. But that is
    O'Brien's fault. It's his job to get cheap depth in the offseason, and he failed miserably.


    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    Look back to March-- In hindsight, who should you have used instead of Haynes? .
    Just about anyone. I said all winter that the Reds needed to sign a minimum of 2 veteran retread starting pitchers to make it through the year. They got one in Lidle. Based on Haynes' perfromance last year, and his back injury,
    it was obvious he was going to be horrible. He should not have been handed
    a rotation spot, which is exactly what the Reds did.
    Now I liked the Vanderwall signing, but if 700k was all that was left in the kitty, DanO should've tried to sign the best retread he could for 700k.. He probably wouldn't have gotten very good quality, but beating Haynes is a low bar to beat.

    Now my main point was that a few weeks ago, DanO said that Haynes' salary had nothing to do with why Haynes was still on the roster. Yet when Haynes was released, he said Haynes salary did impact the roster, because the Reds are "small market".. Just pointing out the contradiction, even if no one else wants to acknowledge it. And for the record, I am happy Haynes was cut.





    From the getgo, I had Haynes in AAA, Myers in the pen and TVP starting, but I'm not crowing because those guys still bite, they just might bite less hard. But they might not. Myers had a bad camp-- couldn't even outdistinguish Phil Norton. TVP is arguably less distinguished than Jimmy-- both have had one decent year, and Jimmy's was more recent. Sanchez seemed a choice, but he hasn't even been that good in Louisville. Really, the best possibility may turn out to have been Seth Etherton. Seth Etherton.

    Or you could have started a kid from the beginning of the year. But nobody's ready. Me, I'm happy that the Reds didn't overpromote a kid, either now or at the end of spring. Bowden might have brought up a guy and cited a Blyleven curve, a Hoffman change

    on that, Kudos to the FO. On most other things, bleah.[/QUOTE]
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #54
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    I doubt think they have this option.. Haynes could've refused the assignment and still got paid. I am pretty sure he has enough service time to stop the Reds from sending him to AAA against his will
    I don't think that such a rule exists. He can refuse an assignment, but loses his contract

    who'd you like for $700K? To go with Lidle, the Reds signed retreads Myers, Etherton, TVP, Sanchez, and Myette. Looks like you could have also had Elarton, who signed for $480K with the hometown team and probably needed more to sign elsewhere.

    you can get Elarton cheaper now. Is that what you'd like to do?

  11. #55
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    I doubt think they have this option.. Haynes could've refused the assignment and still got paid. I am pretty sure he has enough service time to stop the Reds from sending him to AAA against his will..
    He could have refused the assingment but if he wants to pitch on the major league level again he could have gone down to LOU and showed other teams that he had something left in the tank. He looks halfway decent down there perhaps someone comes a callin'. He's not impressing anyone just sitting at home. Even Jimmy Anderson went down to AAA cause he thought someone might pick him up.

    It was a good PR move just to cut him loose. If he had accepted an assignment to AAA the fans' glee in seeing him off the roster would have been tempered with the possibility he may return.
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  12. #56
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Small Market

    Players with more than five years of service time can refuse an assignment to the minors.

    The rule was alluded to in this article about Kevin Jarvis at mlb.com.
    Jarvis has enough Major League service time to refuse a minor league assignment and still receive the remainder of his $4.25 million contract this season, plus a $500,000 option for 2005. If the Mariners release Jarvis, another MLB team can sign him for the minimum salary -- $300,000 pro-rated -- and Seattle would have to pick up the rest of the guaranteed contract.
    The rule (and other arcane rules) are defined here.
    Last edited by Redsland; 05-14-2004 at 08:42 PM.
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