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Thread: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

  1. #61
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    where's that skull/brick wall thing, anyway?
    :dflynn: You mean this? Glad you can relate. Ok, let me try. The chicken came first, which was DanO getting the Bong and Bubba for Chris offer, eh? Then, DanO sees the waiver wire and lo and behold there's Todd Jones, which as destiny would have it could fill in short term for Chris. I think I'm gonna do that deal now if I can sign Todd. Now, Todd and DanO shakes hands, snapshot is taken, trade is announced Saturday morning IIRC, a couple of days after Jones comes on board. You and I both recognized that and called it before it happened. Just because it doesn't now fit your rant doesn't mean its an illogical conclusion by moi :dflynn:
    Last edited by traderumor; 06-01-2004 at 04:31 PM.

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  3. #62
    All dyslexics must untie!
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Hey princeton, do you typically jump such great distances to these conclusions, or does Mrs. princeton have to "dwarf-toss" you?
    Never overlook the obvious

  4. #63
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    The chicken came first, which was DanO getting the Bong and Bubba for Chris offer, eh? Then, DanO sees the waiver wire and lo and behold there's Todd Jones, which as destiny would have it could fill in short term for Chris.
    or, they could have just signed Jones and decided, let's not deal Chris because now that we have a pen, we might actually be able to compete in spite of our rotation. Which was what I said they should do

    hey, it probably should have worked out for DanO. He did go against the percentages (MOST GMs would have waited until late May) but it was still an understandable move given the Reds record last year.

    And the move still could turn out to be the right one-- the Reds may go into a skid that no bullpen could save.

    But right now, it wasn't the right move

  5. #64
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by gm
    So say no one should judge DanO, then you proceed to do just that. Niiice.

    Acevedo was buried in the minors by Bowden and Boone. Immediately after their firing Jose was called up and performed well, up until his ankle accident

    YHO is unconvincing. The only factoid you shared is that the Reds are 9 games over .500, which is probably about 18 games better than what you would've expected for June 1, on the day that Reitsma was dealt.
    Come on gm, I did NOT just now judge O'Brien. He made a really stupid trade....that isn't judging him in the vein of this thread. I didn't call for his firing or anything else. If saying a guy did ONE stupid thing is judging him, I am damned by 5:30 am every morning.

    And Acevedo wasn't BURIED in the minors. Unlike most other Reds so-called pitching prospects, Acevedo (after a rush to the majors) was allowed to get a little success for a few months in AAA before he was called up. Now, I, like any other Reds fan last year would have loved to see ANY pitcher who hadn't been dumped by someone else pitching for the Reds wanted Acevedo called up sooner, but that is beside the point.

    As for my unconvincing opinion....says who? You? OK, THAT is your unconvincing opinion I guess. :idea:

    You are correct though, the Reds are exactly 5 places ahead of where I expected them to be.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  6. #65
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    He made a really stupid trade? Again the bottom line: If one of those pitchers, especially Nelson become good starting pitchers, the deal was not only worth it, it was a steal. Good starting pitching is the toughest commodity to find in baseball. Reitsma will never be a starting pitcher. The Reds have good enough depth of righties that are probably a year or two at most behind Reitsma, one maybe with bigger potential than Reitsma. Can't let the Bowden era go eh? Overvaluing relievers was problem number one. Lets not be stupid eh

    Maybe the deal blows up in O'brien's face and he wastes Reitsma's value. But maybe, just maybe we finally got one right for once but the Reds fan has become so jaded, they can't accept it.

  7. #66
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis
    Maybe the deal blows up in O'brien's face.
    as in 10 BIG runs, three losses, and an overtaxed bullpen. To date.

  8. #67
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    And the move still could turn out to be the right one-- the Reds may go into a skid that no bullpen could save.
    And the Braves could miss the playoffs for the first time since the Reagan administration and wish they had kept Bong/Bubba around to help them rebuild

    Opinions are like belly-buttons...
    Never overlook the obvious

  9. #68
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by gm
    And the Braves...
    have you tried braveszone.com?

  10. #69
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    rila Acevedo was way buried in the minors last season. i almost got called up before him, and i don't even play ball. everyone and his dog were called up ahead of lil jose. Boone and JimBo were sour on him and he was left to rot in AAA. Did it do him some good? probably, but i bet he could have been pitching in Cincinnati in July of last year with some success.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #70
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    have you tried braveszone.com?
    No need, I can get updates on Chris' progress right here (whether I'm interested in them, or not)

    I'm just saying trade "regrets" come from all angles. And if a fan is predisposed to doubt the abilities of the FO/scouting dept those "regrets" will be voiced sooner, rather than later

    (he says, speaking from experience)
    Last edited by gm; 06-01-2004 at 06:49 PM.
    Never overlook the obvious

  12. #71
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Opinions are like belly-buttons...
    They have ins and outs?? :

  13. #72
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Well folks I know I probly shouldnt say this but I could care less if Chris Reitsma got traded I am glad Kenny got traded to the Reds he still has alot to learn yet but in the long run I think he will be ok and one more thing to hell with that bullpen talk I know that I for one dont want to see him in the pen and I know he doesnt want to be in the pen but if that is what it takes to get him to the show and have some success than so be it out :mhcky21:

  14. #73
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Oh please, if you occasionally used stats, projections ect.. I wouldn't poke at you. .
    Translation.. "stats are the most important thing.. in fact the only thing."
    This line of thinking makes you very predictable.. like "Guillen is a fluke", for example. Because the fact that a player could make an adjustment at that age is such a foreign concept.. because the stats can't predict it.

    That is my beef with the stats only approach.

    But that's not my main problem... You ran out of things to say, so you had to say, "You probably hated the bichette trade that brought Reitsma here" (paraphrased).. Why was there a need to add that?.. For the record, I didn't mind the bichette trade, even though I felt Bichette was underrated here (his OPS was about the same as Young and Casey during his stay here).. But I can understand trading an old 6 million dollar OF for a young prospect when you are out of it.. I have less understanding why a rebuilding team that needs pitching would trade their "most outstanding pitcher" from the previous year who was only making 900k, for what appears (IMO) to be 2 future middle relievers of less quality.. But as I said, if we can get 3-4 years of solid relief from those guys (ie. not Reith-like).. the trade is ok.. Ironically, my criteria for success of that trade is much lower than most on the board.


    So please refrain from making up stuff or making wild guesses at what I said in the past to hurt my crediblity. I don't care if stats are the only thing that matter to you, but don't misrepresent what I said..

    If you define crap as future middle relievers, that's your definition. (You claimed I was portraying them as crap).
    I didn't say those 2 prospects were crap. We are going to need middle relievers in a couple years too (along with just about everything else)..
    So if Bong/Nelson fill that need, that is not too bad.. I did call them disappointing (or something to that effect), but that's because I expected Bong to be ML ready. To me, a ML ready guy is a lot more valuable than a "maybe in 2-3 years".. Also, that's part of the reason I have soured a little on Clausen.. My informal "scout" has not been impressed. Even the Reds brass would rather have Valentine up here than Claussen..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  15. #74
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Do you really think that the Reds were gonna do Reitsma/Jones/Wagner/Reidling? Maybe Mrs. Princeton is smarter than you think

    Well after 2002 ended , these guys were already in tow for 2003 for the bullpen as options:

    White
    Sully
    Williamson
    Reidling
    Reitsma (who they were trying to figure out his role)
    Reith

    Yet they still invited/signed:
    Manzillo
    Heredia
    Mercker

    They did this knowing Graves might fail as a starter.

    If they did Sully/Williamson/Reidling/Manzillo last year (and sent Reitsma to AAA), why is it a stretch to consider Reitsma/Jones/Wagner/Reidling this year? Why would they limit themselves to only 3 reliable RH pitchers? A smart GM should grab any cheap bullpen arm that might be an upgrade.

    In fact, DanO didn't go far enough. He should've more aggressively tried to upgrade Reith and Norton.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  16. #75
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    So please refrain from making up stuff or making wild guesses at what I said in the past to hurt my crediblity. I don't care if stats are the only thing that matter to you, but don't misrepresent what I said..
    I apologize for that statement, it was off the cuff and misplaced within the debate.

    For the record stats aren't the only thing that matters to me, far from it.

    However it's not lost on me that with that statement you're also putting on the shoes that you're accusing me of wearing in my attempt to walk over your argument.


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