Was anyone suggesting that the Reds keep Chris Reitsma AND pick Todd Jones up off waivers during the last week of spring training?
Anyone? No one?
Then all of this extrapolation is moot. The Reds never considered keeping both RHR pitchers in their 2004 bullpen and neither did you. Bemoaning it post-facto is pointless, IMO
Never overlook the obvious
The DL reference was to Willy, so I guess my grade needs to go down, but then points off to the reviewer for not quoting the whole sentenceMaybe you should pay attention. That Reitsma 2.02 ERA in May looked pretty good.. Actually, I think I added Reitsma after I had typed the parentheses. My bad.
If Bong and especially Nelson become "good" ML starting pitchers, we win. Nothing more needs to be said. Reitsma will never be a starter, "just a MR".
The Reds don't need help with RH in the BP(we have Wagner,Valentine and even Coffey developing for Christs sake), but the left side(which Bong may be able to help also) where Norton and Sanchez are subpar. Lets understand, you have to give something to get something. If O'brien did his job, he may have gotten starting pitching. While we won't know for another year or two, good,goody and thank goodness.
WHAT O'Brien plan?
The team that is winning is the one Bowden built.....minus some serious talent that the Limited dumped before O'Biren got here.
One thought so far was compare Todd Jones to Rietsma.....are we serious?
Rietsma has a 2.17 era while Jones is at 4.30 and was over 5 a week ago.
The other thought has been the "quality arms" the Reds got. If the arms are SUCH QUALITY, how come Valentine pitched Sunday and threw that game away before the first inning was even over with?
So far, you cannot judege what O'Brien has done, because what he was hired to do is supposed to take years to accomplish. As for the current success, the Reds have had similar early success 3 of the last 4 years and Bowden was fired for it. So don't try to hang good or bad on O'Brien for what has happened so far.
His trade of Rietsma was STUPID....no other way to put it because as other posters have said, it screamed loud and long that the Reds had no intention of fieling a ML team in 2004. The fact that JR and Larkin are finally healthy, and that Casey is having an all world first two months are the reason for the current fine fortune.
As for pitching to contact, that is also a bunch of bull. Fact is that Wilsn WAS finally healthy, Acevedo MADE the FO finally concede that he might be a ML pitcher, and public condemnation led to the release of Haynes (which I DO give o"Brien and mostly Miley kudos for). If your insightful plan is ACTUALLY that pitching to contact makes you win, why in the world do you call up a WILD MAN like Valentine? That sure makes a statement.
MHO is that if you DON'T trade Rietsma, that Reds are probably 13 games over .500 right now instead of 9.....but who really knows?
Could this be a rare example of a pitcher who leaves Gullett's tutelage and actually improves?Originally Posted by creek14
Never overlook the obvious
As for pitching to contact, that is also a bunch of bull.
Here's the defensive efficiency report on the Cubs, Reds and Astros. (from last week)
The amount of balls in play by the Reds opposition compared to the others is rather large, coupled with the low K rate then you really have to lean on the amount of BB allowed that the Reds staff to see where their success lies, that's called "Pitching to Contact"Code:TEAM PA AB H BB SO HBP HR ROE DEF_EFF CIN 1798 1617 443 128 283 17 56 15 0.6941 CHN 1738 1527 358 160 372 21 47 11 0.7170 HOU 1745 1556 370 149 398 16 49 17 0.7017
Cincinnati 1 bb every 14.0 batters
Chicago 1 bb every 10.8 batters
Astros 1 bb every 11.7 batters
The Lack of BB's is really holding the Reds staff collective heads above water at this point.
Currently the Reds allow a hit every 4 PA and the Cubs 4.7 and Astros 4.85 add in HBP and BB that brings the rate in at:
So in essence it's not BS it's what they're doing, because if their BB rate goes up that plus hits they allow will hurt them bad.Code:Reds 1 BR every 3 batters Astros 1 BR every 3.26 batters Cubs 1 BR every 3.22 batters
Read what you want to read into my stuff.. There's no point in trying to
explain myself, you've already made up your mind what I meant :yawn:
And that would be another wrong assumption you made about my thoughts, but it
helps your usual strategy of side tracking the issue and trying to make me look
inferior to the almighty stat god (you)..
Deny it all you want, but right now, both Bong and Nelson look more like future bullpenners.
In your mind, it probably doesn't matter what Atlanta's opinion was, a few years of Naehring
yelling "pitch to contract" at them will surely fix everything.. I want this org to develop
starting pitching as much as anyone, but Bong and Nelson don't look like answers right now.
And they may never be answers.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
So say no one should judge DanO, then you proceed to do just that. Niiice.
Acevedo was buried in the minors by Bowden and Boone. Immediately after their firing Jose was called up and performed well, up until his ankle accident
YHO is unconvincing. The only factoid you shared is that the Reds are 9 games over .500, which is probably about 18 games better than what you would've expected for June 1, on the day that Reitsma was dealt.
Last edited by gm; 06-01-2004 at 03:27 PM.
Never overlook the obvious
Oh please, if you occasionally used stats, projections ect.. I wouldn't poke at you.And that would be another wrong assumption you made about my thoughts, but it helps your usual strategy of side tracking the issue and trying to make me look inferior to the almighty stat god (you)..
But you don't.
As for my "usual strategy" it doesn't involve "sidetracking" or trying to make you look "inferior" but if you want to try insult me by alluding to my use of stats go ahead, I'm a big boy who can handle the heat.
WHO, WHO, WHO were the MANY WOY? Just about everybody wanted Bichette gone for a bucket of old baseballs.....who cared what they got for him.
Just razin' you WOY. I get your point.
As to gm's assertion earlier that people upset with this trade are second guessing.....I take issue. I was one of several posters who openly disliked this trade the moment it was announced....and it is still an AWFUL trade.
But I will also point out that without assumption and second guessing, baseball would rank just about two ticks above watching paint dry as the most boring pastime in history....hence, boards like this that are fun and enjoyable.
Last edited by red-in-la; 06-01-2004 at 03:40 PM.
why, yes
also, I "called" the trade but you shouldn't extrapolate that I thought it was a good idea. I didn't, I just expected it.
the best way to analyze a deal is whether you'd do it today, and whether you CAN do it today.
with the Reitsma trade, the Reds wouldn't do it today, and Atlanta would in a heartbeat. Disadvantage Reds.
BTW, whoever is comparing Jones' numbers instead of Reith's as Reitsma's replacement went to the same logic school as mrs. princeton. she's sexy though
that trade cost 10 big runs, three wins. At least.
Well, I said I was done with this wascally wabbit twail, but I just wanted to point out that my wife thinks the same about me, but my logic was sound. If Reitsma stays, Jones isn't signed (are chicken/egg concepts too tough for east coasters?BTW, whoever is comparing Jones' numbers instead of Reith's as Reitsma's replacement went to the same logic school as mrs. princeton. she's sexy though
why yes: a bad rotation deserves a good pen. It's (here's that word again) logical
You're right, with logic like this, who can argue and win?the best way to analyze a deal is whether you'd do it today, and whether you CAN do it today.
BTW, I doubt that Jones comes on board if he is replacing Reith, which I guess is what you're getting at. The dude is old and seems to be foot loose and fancy free enough to not bite the first hook thrown his way but to wait for a late inning short reliever stint like the one he landed in Redsland.
Last edited by traderumor; 06-01-2004 at 04:14 PM.
Jones was here, Reitsma was here. At the same time. Saw their picture together myself. A trade didn't necessarily follow. It's not a hammer on the knee.
you can always trade someone later, once you've figured out if Wagner's good, if the starters can give you innings, if the team will be out of race, etc. You might not get the same return, though in this case you could have gotten the same return if not better.
where's that skull/brick wall thing, anyway?
Last edited by princeton; 06-01-2004 at 04:28 PM.
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