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Thread: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

  1. #46
    All dyslexics must untie!
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Was anyone suggesting that the Reds keep Chris Reitsma AND pick Todd Jones up off waivers during the last week of spring training?

    Anyone? No one?

    Then all of this extrapolation is moot. The Reds never considered keeping both RHR pitchers in their 2004 bullpen and neither did you. Bemoaning it post-facto is pointless, IMO
    Never overlook the obvious

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  3. #47
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Maybe you should pay attention. That Reitsma 2.02 ERA in May looked pretty good.
    The DL reference was to Willy, so I guess my grade needs to go down, but then points off to the reviewer for not quoting the whole sentence . Actually, I think I added Reitsma after I had typed the parentheses. My bad.

  4. #48
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    If Bong and especially Nelson become "good" ML starting pitchers, we win. Nothing more needs to be said. Reitsma will never be a starter, "just a MR".

    The Reds don't need help with RH in the BP(we have Wagner,Valentine and even Coffey developing for Christs sake), but the left side(which Bong may be able to help also) where Norton and Sanchez are subpar. Lets understand, you have to give something to get something. If O'brien did his job, he may have gotten starting pitching. While we won't know for another year or two, good,goody and thank goodness.

  5. #49
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    WHAT O'Brien plan?

    The team that is winning is the one Bowden built.....minus some serious talent that the Limited dumped before O'Biren got here.

    One thought so far was compare Todd Jones to Rietsma.....are we serious?

    Rietsma has a 2.17 era while Jones is at 4.30 and was over 5 a week ago.

    The other thought has been the "quality arms" the Reds got. If the arms are SUCH QUALITY, how come Valentine pitched Sunday and threw that game away before the first inning was even over with?

    So far, you cannot judege what O'Brien has done, because what he was hired to do is supposed to take years to accomplish. As for the current success, the Reds have had similar early success 3 of the last 4 years and Bowden was fired for it. So don't try to hang good or bad on O'Brien for what has happened so far.

    His trade of Rietsma was STUPID....no other way to put it because as other posters have said, it screamed loud and long that the Reds had no intention of fieling a ML team in 2004. The fact that JR and Larkin are finally healthy, and that Casey is having an all world first two months are the reason for the current fine fortune.

    As for pitching to contact, that is also a bunch of bull. Fact is that Wilsn WAS finally healthy, Acevedo MADE the FO finally concede that he might be a ML pitcher, and public condemnation led to the release of Haynes (which I DO give o"Brien and mostly Miley kudos for). If your insightful plan is ACTUALLY that pitching to contact makes you win, why in the world do you call up a WILD MAN like Valentine? That sure makes a statement.

    MHO is that if you DON'T trade Rietsma, that Reds are probably 13 games over .500 right now instead of 9.....but who really knows?
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  6. #50
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by creek14
    "He just emphasizes the down-and-away strike, being in the zone down, being aggressive all the time and being ahead," Reitsma said of his pitching coach's philosophy. "It's nothing new from what I've heard before, it's just that he's very focussed and very intent on that. And obviously he's had a lot of good pitchers under him and a lot of success. You listen to him and try to keep things simple -- I think that's the key."
    Could this be a rare example of a pitcher who leaves Gullett's tutelage and actually improves?
    Never overlook the obvious

  7. #51
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    As for pitching to contact, that is also a bunch of bull.

    Here's the defensive efficiency report on the Cubs, Reds and Astros. (from last week)

    Code:
    TEAM  PA    AB     H    BB    SO   HBP    HR   ROE  DEF_EFF
    
    CIN 1798  1617   443   128   283    17    56    15   0.6941
    CHN 1738  1527   358   160   372    21    47    11   0.7170
    HOU 1745  1556   370   149   398    16    49    17   0.7017
    The amount of balls in play by the Reds opposition compared to the others is rather large, coupled with the low K rate then you really have to lean on the amount of BB allowed that the Reds staff to see where their success lies, that's called "Pitching to Contact"

    Cincinnati 1 bb every 14.0 batters
    Chicago 1 bb every 10.8 batters
    Astros 1 bb every 11.7 batters


    The Lack of BB's is really holding the Reds staff collective heads above water at this point.

    Currently the Reds allow a hit every 4 PA and the Cubs 4.7 and Astros 4.85 add in HBP and BB that brings the rate in at:

    Code:
     
    Reds   1 BR every 3     batters
    Astros 1 BR every 3.26  batters
    Cubs   1 BR every 3.22  batters
    So in essence it's not BS it's what they're doing, because if their BB rate goes up that plus hits they allow will hurt them bad.

  8. #52
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    No, you didn't.....you said everything else but that they were crap, eschewing their age, the organizations lack of starters ect....
    Read what you want to read into my stuff.. There's no point in trying to
    explain myself, you've already made up your mind what I meant :yawn:

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    I'm sure when Reitsma was obtained for Bichette you poo pooed his career and his broken arm and chance for success.
    And that would be another wrong assumption you made about my thoughts, but it
    helps your usual strategy of side tracking the issue and trying to make me look
    inferior to the almighty stat god (you)..

    Deny it all you want, but right now, both Bong and Nelson look more like future bullpenners.
    In your mind, it probably doesn't matter what Atlanta's opinion was, a few years of Naehring
    yelling "pitch to contract" at them will surely fix everything.. I want this org to develop
    starting pitching as much as anyone, but Bong and Nelson don't look like answers right now.
    And they may never be answers.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #53
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la
    WHAT O'Brien plan?

    So far, you cannot judege what O'Brien has done, because what he was hired to do is supposed to take years to accomplish.

    Acevedo MADE the FO finally concede that he might be a ML pitcher,

    MHO is that if you DON'T trade Rietsma, that Reds are probably 13 games over .500 right now instead of 9.....but who really knows?
    So say no one should judge DanO, then you proceed to do just that. Niiice.

    Acevedo was buried in the minors by Bowden and Boone. Immediately after their firing Jose was called up and performed well, up until his ankle accident

    YHO is unconvincing. The only factoid you shared is that the Reds are 9 games over .500, which is probably about 18 games better than what you would've expected for June 1, on the day that Reitsma was dealt.
    Last edited by gm; 06-01-2004 at 03:27 PM.
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  10. #54
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    And that would be another wrong assumption you made about my thoughts, but it helps your usual strategy of side tracking the issue and trying to make me look inferior to the almighty stat god (you)..
    Oh please, if you occasionally used stats, projections ect.. I wouldn't poke at you.

    But you don't.

    As for my "usual strategy" it doesn't involve "sidetracking" or trying to make you look "inferior" but if you want to try insult me by alluding to my use of stats go ahead, I'm a big boy who can handle the heat.

  11. #55
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    No, you didn't.....you said everything else but that they were crap, eschewing their age, the organizations lack of starters ect....

    Looking at the bottom line and assuming that garbage was gotten and gold was given away.

    Like I said the world of baseball isn't this past 2 months or the 2 months after this, time will tell what happens and your love and overestimation of the cost of middle relief will continue.

    I'm sure when Reitsma was obtained for Bichette you poo pooed his career and his broken arm and chance for success.

    Many did at the time.
    WHO, WHO, WHO were the MANY WOY? Just about everybody wanted Bichette gone for a bucket of old baseballs.....who cared what they got for him.

    Just razin' you WOY. I get your point.

    As to gm's assertion earlier that people upset with this trade are second guessing.....I take issue. I was one of several posters who openly disliked this trade the moment it was announced....and it is still an AWFUL trade.

    But I will also point out that without assumption and second guessing, baseball would rank just about two ticks above watching paint dry as the most boring pastime in history....hence, boards like this that are fun and enjoyable.
    Last edited by red-in-la; 06-01-2004 at 03:40 PM.
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  12. #56
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by gm
    Was anyone suggesting that the Reds keep Chris Reitsma AND pick Todd Jones up off waivers during the last week of spring training?

    Anyone?
    why, yes

    also, I "called" the trade but you shouldn't extrapolate that I thought it was a good idea. I didn't, I just expected it.

    the best way to analyze a deal is whether you'd do it today, and whether you CAN do it today.

    with the Reitsma trade, the Reds wouldn't do it today, and Atlanta would in a heartbeat. Disadvantage Reds.

    BTW, whoever is comparing Jones' numbers instead of Reith's as Reitsma's replacement went to the same logic school as mrs. princeton. she's sexy though

    that trade cost 10 big runs, three wins. At least.

  13. #57
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    BTW, whoever is comparing Jones' numbers instead of Reith's as Reitsma's replacement went to the same logic school as mrs. princeton. she's sexy though
    Well, I said I was done with this wascally wabbit twail, but I just wanted to point out that my wife thinks the same about me, but my logic was sound. If Reitsma stays, Jones isn't signed (are chicken/egg concepts too tough for east coasters? ). Reith stays either way to pull middle relief. Do you really think that the Reds were gonna do Reitsma/Jones/Wagner/Reidling? Maybe Mrs. Princeton is smarter than you think

  14. #58
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Do you really think that the Reds were gonna do Reitsma/Jones/Wagner/Reidling?
    why yes: a bad rotation deserves a good pen. It's (here's that word again) logical

  15. #59
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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    the best way to analyze a deal is whether you'd do it today, and whether you CAN do it today.
    You're right, with logic like this, who can argue and win?

    BTW, I doubt that Jones comes on board if he is replacing Reith, which I guess is what you're getting at. The dude is old and seems to be foot loose and fancy free enough to not bite the first hook thrown his way but to wait for a late inning short reliever stint like the one he landed in Redsland.
    Last edited by traderumor; 06-01-2004 at 04:14 PM.

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    Re: Anybody Think O'Brien Pulled The Trigger Too Early?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    BTW, I doubt that Jones comes on board if he is replacing Reith, which I guess is what you're getting at.
    Jones was here, Reitsma was here. At the same time. Saw their picture together myself. A trade didn't necessarily follow. It's not a hammer on the knee.

    you can always trade someone later, once you've figured out if Wagner's good, if the starters can give you innings, if the team will be out of race, etc. You might not get the same return, though in this case you could have gotten the same return if not better.

    where's that skull/brick wall thing, anyway?
    Last edited by princeton; 06-01-2004 at 04:28 PM.


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