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Thread: Bender Update !!!

  1. #31
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    MWM, I can only speak for myself here, and I certainly did not include you in my reference to the Casey "lambasters". I know they have regular meetings and a secret handshake and all, and I never suspected that you were a member of that nefarious group.

    And most definitely, Casey's performance was fair game, especially given the contract he signed.

    My gripe was then and still is now the personal nature of the attacks.

    Here's what I wrote in one of the prediction threads in the archives....

    Time to rev up the Idiotmobile.

    One of the main reasons that scouts are interested in a players "makeup" is the near certainty that a player will be faced with adversity many times in his career.

    How you respond to that adversity can differ greatly among players, and for that matter, individuals in all walks of life.

    I pick Sean Casey for surprise of the year.

    It may well be that his makeup hurt him while he was injured. He struggled to play through not just pain, but injury. I'm betting that he comes back more fit and more determined than ever to prove his detractors wrong.



    I believed that his injuries were the reason his performance dropped off, and it always rankled me when personal attacks the likes of "he leads the league in hugs" and many, many others just like that were being heaped on a good man who never failed to leave it all on the field.

    I also made the point many times, to much derision, that Casey represented the "brand", to use a marketing term, of the Cincinnati Reds, and as such had additional value to the team in a very real monetary sense.

    If sabermetrics has helped us to understand that baseball is a business, then part of that business plan also has to be marketing. And Casey and his relationship to the community is marketing 101 at its finest.

    But it didn't matter what you said about Casey while he was down, you could always count on a slew of smart-alec remarks that made you feel like you were being talked down to and ridiculed for being so naive.

    I think this is a common perception among the folks on this board who dared to support Casey through the past few years.

    When I look back at great atheletes and great performers in all walks of life over the years, the ones who have overcome adversity are the ones who stand out in my mind. Casey exemplifies everything that I love about sports, and the way he carried himself through the numerous down periods of his career just add to the legend.

    I refuse to reduce it to simple numbers. I've said it many times over the years here, and always to the amusement of many, I'm sure, but you can't measure heart, you can't measure the metaphysical side of the game that doesn't show up in the numbers. But you can observe it, if you know what you're looking at.

    It doesn't bother me one iota that a statement like that will be laughed at by many as naive. I've been around athletes all my life, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

    Our connection to sports takes many different forms and can be defined in many different ways. Sean Casey is worth the money he's been paid by the Reds, and then some. No spreadsheet will ever convince me otherwise.
    Last edited by RFS62; 06-01-2004 at 05:08 PM.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  3. #32
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Sean Casey is worth the money he's been paid by the Reds, and then some. No spreadsheet will ever convince me otherwise.
    Casey is the biggest Caucasion Brand that the Reds have had since Pete Rose and Bench, the biggest in Cincinnati since Boomer.

    That's not lost on me by any means.

  4. #33
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    I think that oregonred was being "lighthearted" for the most part in his original comment, and I know that I was being totally lighthearted in bringing back the "I-Mobile" avatar. I certainly have been a fan of Casey's and I hope his big year continues, but I am well aware that all the lightheartedness" that this thread may exhibit will turn to a "lynch" mentality if Casey falters at all. I never really expected anyone to get all bent out of shape over this thread, but I have been wrong, many times before. Here's hoping that Casey keeps it up, and Broussard can get his mobile headed in the right direction.

  5. #34
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    "You know I'm a big fan of yours RFS, but exactly what were they wrong about?"

    They were wrong, ultimately, about Broussard.

    I know, now the "small sample size" excuse will be given to defend Ben's putrid two months of the season (and .727 lifetime ML OPS--an OPS, incidentally, I feel QUITE certain Branyan could maintain from the bench or even starting for that matter).

    Look, I was one of Casey's detractors, without question. I'll be a good sport and say I was wrong and take the crow. I thought the guy was Wally Joyner Light, and still think he's more Joyner than the guy that's played these last two months. But I also knew this Ben "I'm bench chattel" Broussard pimping was going to blow up in a lot of people's faces, and it's either inattention or disingenousness that has people wondering why, oh why, these Bender updates are being lampooned. I'm not a big "eye for an eye" person, but the spirit of these threads seems appropriate and largely in good fun.

  6. #35
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Casey is the biggest Caucasion Brand that the Reds have had since Pete Rose and Bench, the biggest in Cincinnati since Boomer.

    That's not lost on me by any means.
    And Jr. is the biggest Negro Brand the Reds have had since Eric Davis.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  7. #36
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    "Casey is the biggest Caucasion Brand that the Reds have had since Pete Rose and Bench, the biggest in Cincinnati since Boomer."

    Since this thread has taken a "colorful" turn, let me add one of my own:

    RED (HERRING)

    I know Cincy's a fairly racist town, but I don't get how this is germane to the discussion AT ALL.

  8. #37
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    And Jr. is the biggest Negro Brand the Reds have had since Eric Davis.
    Nah Barry is that guy, before him it was E.D.

  9. #38
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Fair enough RFS. Good points. He probably did endure a little more than his fairf share of criticism, but as you pointed out his production was fair game considering his contract. Maybe I'm just practicing selective memory here, but I recall the majority of the comments focussed more on performance and salary than anything personal. I know at one point I was a proponent of trading Sean Casey if you could get anyone to take his contract. But I also remember much criticism hepaed my way for such a suggestion. I also remember every time he had a good game reading multiple posts to the tune of "where are all the proponents of trading Casey now!"

    I also made the point many times, to much derision, that Casey represented the "brand", to use a marketing term, of the Cincinnati Reds, and as such had additional value to the team in a very real monetary sense.
    You might be surprised that I agree with this. I don't remember you saying this, but I'm glad to hear you look at this way too. It kind of validates my thoughts on the matter. BTW, Redsland can back me up on this because he and had a conversation about this very subject at the game a couple of weeks ago.

    I commented that Casey has now been around long enough that he has become synonymous with the Cincinnati Reds. I didn't always believe this and if we could have traded him as recently as last year, my opinion might have been different. But he's now in his 7th season with the Reds. That's probably half of his career. Some of my saber buddies might cringe at the thought of this, but I definitely believe there is a real value to having players who spend their entire career with the Reds and become synonmymous with the city and the franchise. As you mentioned, I think it's all part of "branding" the baseball franchise. These are the players who continue to live in the city after their careers and who people will always associate with Reds baseball. Johnny Bench comes to mind for the Reds, Ozzie Smith for St. Louis, Yaz for the Red Sox. I really believe that's a value and Sean Casey might have passed that theshhold of time with the club that he can replace Barry Larkin as that person.

    But there's a limit to how far I'm willing to take that. The player has to at least be decent and his contract has to be at least reasonable. Am I willing to pay a couple million dollar premium over production? That's about as far as I go. While I believe there is a value, I wouldn't be willing to overpay for that value. In other words, how much additional "brand" euqity does that player provide. Ultimately, a winning team is the best way to increase brand value, and if keeping a player like Casey prohibits the franchise from putting a winning team on the field, then I sacrifice the player for winning. But as long as that's not the case, I'd try to keep him in Cincinnati.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  10. #39
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Originally posted by RFS62:

    MWM, I can only speak for myself here, and I certainly did not include you in my reference to the Casey "lambasters". I know they have regular meetings and a secret handshake and all, and I never suspected that you were a member of that nefarious group.

    And most definitely, Casey's performance was fair game, especially given the contract he signed.

    My gripe was then and still is now the personal nature of the attacks.

    Here's what I wrote in one of the prediction threads in the archives....

    Time to rev up the Idiotmobile.

    One of the main reasons that scouts are interested in a players "makeup" is the near certainty that a player will be faced with adversity many times in his career.

    How you respond to that adversity can differ greatly among players, and for that matter, individuals in all walks of life.

    I pick Sean Casey for surprise of the year.

    It may well be that his makeup hurt him while he was injured. He struggled to play through not just pain, but injury. I'm betting that he comes back more fit and more determined than ever to prove his detractors wrong.



    I believed that his injuries were the reason his performance dropped off, and it always rankled me when personal attacks the likes of "he leads the league in hugs" and many, many others just like that were being heaped on a good man who never failed to leave it all on the field.

    I also made the point many times, to much derision, that Casey represented the "brand", to use a marketing term, of the Cincinnati Reds, and as such had additional value to the team in a very real monetary sense.

    If sabermetrics has helped us to understand that baseball is a business, then part of that business plan also has to be marketing. And Casey and his relationship to the community is marketing 101 at its finest.

    But it didn't matter what you said about Casey while he was down, you could always count on a slew of smart-alec remarks that made you feel like you were being talked down to and ridiculed for being so naive.

    I think this is a common perception among the folks on this board who dared to support Casey through the past few years.

    When I look back at great atheletes and great performers in all walks of life over the years, the ones who have overcome adversity are the ones who stand out in my mind. Casey exemplifies everything that I love about sports, and the way he carried himself through the numerous down periods of his career just add to the legend.

    I refuse to reduce it to simple numbers. I've said it many times over the years here, and always to the amusement of many, I'm sure, but you can't measure heart, you can't measure the metaphysical side of the game that doesn't show up in the numbers. But you can observe it, if you know what you're looking at.

    It doesn't bother me one iota that a statement like that will be laughed at by many as naive. I've been around athletes all my life, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

    Our connection to sports takes many different forms and can be defined in many different ways. Sean Casey is worth the money he's been paid by the Reds, and then some. No spreadsheet will ever convince me otherwise.
    That post is worth reading a few times! Great post, RFS62. Pretty much sums up my feelings as well!
    :GAC:

  11. #40
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    You might be surprised that I agree with this. I don't remember you saying this, but I'm glad to hear you look at this way too. It kind of validates my thoughts on the matter. BTW, Redsland can back me up on this because he and had a conversation about this very subject at the game a couple of weeks ago.

    Mike, as you well know, I consider you a friend and I have the utmost respect for you. Your word is all I need on the matter. It's no stretch of my imagination that anyone with a business background would see it this way, in fact, I'd be surprised if you didn't, and Redsland too, with his advertising background.

    And I must admit, the Bender aspect of this thread was totally irrelevant to me when I started my rant. I've been itching to post my thoughts on this subject for some time now, and this just was the thread that uncorked all my pent up frustrations.

    So, I apologize if I hijacked the thread from its original purpose.

    And I don't really begrudge anyone for looking only at the numbers on this one. I would, however, implore anyone considering the subject to look deeper, in the truest spirit of the sabermetric movement of understanding all aspects of the game in the most complete fashion possible.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  12. #41
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    but I don't get how this is germane to the discussion AT ALL
    It's not intended to touch on anything more than marketing.

    If I'm marketing a product I first examine who my customer is, what my product is and then move from there. Back in the day JB and Pete were everywhere as far as ads, then Boomer, Paul O'Neil use to pitch Famous Recipe Chicken. Lately the only Reds employee I've seen in a commercial is barry now and then and Marty or Joe.

    Sean has tenure, is a avowed middle america guy with a family and a firm handshake and a look in your eye. That's apple pie and ice cream in the marketing world, a guy like that having a monster year is marketing gold,especially in a market that is predominatly white and a fan base that is predominatley white it's a puzzle piece that can't be denied.

    Even if it isn't PC to the core.

  13. #42
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    It's not intended to touch on anything more than marketing.

    If I'm marketing a product I first examine who my customer is, what my product is and then move from there. Back in the day JB and Pete were everywhere as far as ads, then Boomer, Paul O'Neil use to pitch Famous Recipe Chicken. Lately the only Reds employee I've seen in a commercial is barry now and then and Marty or Joe.

    Sean has tenure, is a avowed middle america guy with a family and a firm handshake and a look in your eye. That's apple pie and ice cream in the marketing world, a guy like that having a monster year is marketing gold,especially in a market that is predominatly white and a fan base that is predominatley white it's a puzzle piece that can't be denied.

    Even if it isn't PC to the core.
    And if he were black he'd just be another average player, right Mr. Rodman?
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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  14. #43
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    And if he were black he'd just be another average player, right Mr. Rodman?
    McDonalds uses pregnent women to pitch their new "Healthy Menu" not teens or construction workers.

    Now that's marketing.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  15. #44
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    I'm with you WOY why do you think Freel is so loved even though he is OPS is much lower than Pena which the same fans want Pena out of town on the first bus.

  16. #45
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bender Update !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    McDonalds uses pregnent women to pitch their new "Healthy Menu" not teens or construction workers.

    Now that's marketing.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    I guess I fail to see how marketing a product or a player is relevant about which player is better, Casey or Broussard.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

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