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Thread: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

  1. #91
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Reagan's administration was a "spectator" rather than a "participant" on the international stage?
    Yep, the primary credit the Reaganites give themselves is that they changed the world through internal spending. Circuitous logic at best. In terms of actively doing stuff, there was a lot talk and little action. I give Reagan credit for dutifully standing his turn on Cold War watch just like every President back to Truman, but I think it's a tossup as to whether Reagan's posturing had as much effect on the Eastern Bloc as Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun."
    He'll probably be all right.

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  3. #92
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    [PHP]I don't understand what metric you'd use to separate Reagan and Clinton.[/PHP]

    Is the National Debt a metric?
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  4. #93
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Is the National Debt a metric?
    Returning to fiscal responsibility certainly was Clinton's chief accomplishment. IMO, keeping his head during the turbulent period between Brezhnev and Gorbachev was Reagan's.

    But Clinton's balanced budget disappeared in a flash and Reagan never laid down a blueprint for a post-Cold War world. Their primary gains came in the form of good stewardship. Yet those things ultimately prove ephemeral.
    He'll probably be all right.

  5. #94
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Good stewardship is why Clinton is second-tier. I do give credit for Reagan's trust of Gorby, but, unless your very wealthy, the Reagan Revolution was a disaster.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  6. #95
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Originally posted by Dom Heffner:

    Randy, your point is well taken. I would point out that you were probably also raised to not say anything at all if you couldn't say something nice, but did you always follow that with Bill Clinton? Is it polite to make fun of a man's infidelity when his wife is still alive to hear it? Help me to understand the good ol' boy manners system here. I sure hope you raise your son to be a man who doesn't delight in someone's infidelity.

    You are trying to make us all feel guilty with your home grown wisdom, but manners never seem to affect the Grand Old Party when it comes to Democrats. BIll Clinton has an ugly kid? Call her a dog. Don't like someone's political views? Pander videotapes telling made-up stories of murder. JFK, Jr. dies in a plane crash? Tell a joke about how he can walk on water but just not fly over it.

    I realize you did not do these things, Randy, but I've never read as eloquent of a criticism of those people as you've written towards us.
    You make some good points Dom. First, let me say that I am hardly always in agreement with everything that the Grand Old Party does. Some of the nastiness that goes on within the political world is revolting, and it sure as heck isn't confined to a single party. It's pretty obvious that morality, acting according to a proper upbringing, good manners, and gentlemanly or ladylike behavior are not words that come to mind when describing a lot of our political figures these days. Come to think of it, those words don't describe a majority of the population anymore. Seems like anything goes these days, and nothing is truly right or wrong. In my mind, that is a sad state, but then again, that is only my opinion, for what it is worth.

    As far as delighting in Bill Clinton's marital infidelity, I did not. It actually made me feel pretty bad. What his lack of control accomplished was to just keep lowering the level of integrity of the office of the President of the United States, and the way it is viewed at home and abroad. I've always wanted to feel like the President of the United States should be held to a very high moral code. Again, these days, it seems anything goes. I felt the same sort of sadness and scorn when Nixon and Watergate lowered the bar before Clinton. Didn't matter that he was a Republican. He should have been above that, and finally did the right thing by stepping down, albeit, much too late.

    I realize that my "Down home, good ol' boy" manners are not necessarily popular these days in our anything goes society. I am not ashamed of them, though. I was taught a lot of things that have served me well. I was always taught to treat everyone with dignity and respect, to stand when a woman entered the room. To always tell the truth. To say yes sir and no sir and yes ma'm and no ma'm. To always say thank you. To be more concerned about what I could do for others than what they could do for me. That the truth was more important than being right. To lend a hand when it was needed. You are right in your assuming that I was taught not to say anything about someone if I couldn't say something good. Heaven knows, I have not always adhered to that, as much as I have tried. I've had to go back and apologize to folks for things that I have said. That's never easy, but it is right. The particular set of values, that I was given by my family, is not easy to live by, but it sure gives me something to shoot for. The anything goes mentality was pretty foreign in my family life. The correction for bad behavior was always swift and tough.

    Your points about the negative quotes attributed to democratic political figures are well taken, but there are just as many out there to go with the republicans. There's another one of those "Down Home" messages that was impressed upon me at an early age. "Two wrongs don't make a right."

    You know, I'm real sorry if I made you or anyone else feel bad with my "eloquent criticism," as you put it. Really wasn't my intent. It was just my opinion, which doesn't make it right for everyone, and it wasn't aimed at you or anyone else in particular. Just stating my take on the thread and its content. Again, sorry if it offended.

  7. #96
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by letsgojunior
    Just wow. A man just died. His family and most of the nation are in a major state of grief. A woman has to wake up tomorrow knowing she'll never see the love of her life again. Kids have to wake up knowing that the guy who helped shape their life died a pretty horrible death.

    I can't at all see the correlation between insults in the heat of debate with insults thrown at someone who passed hours before, leaving behind a major ripple effect of pain and sadness.

    No one is saying his presidency is off-limits - they are just saying that there should be a period for the family to grieve and pay their respects.
    Exactly LGJ!

    No one is attempting to "deify" Reagan or say he was a saint. A former President has died, and people simply want to pay their respects (or in some cases... disrespect ).

    Let me put it this way folks... the next time someone you know, or were close to (maybe a family member, friend, whatever) dies, then lets see you go to the funeral or the wake and start "highlighting" all their faults and weaknesses and see what it gets you.

    There is a time and place....but this isn't want of them IMO.

    There is, and will be, plenty of time to discuss the Reagan "legacy".
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  8. #97
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Let me put it this way folks... the next time someone you know, or were close to (maybe a family member, friend, whatever) dies, then lets see you go to the funeral or the wake and start "highlighting" all their faults and weaknesses and see what it gets you.

    There is a time and place....but this isn't want of them IMO.
    I don't neccessarily disagree with your last sentence, but comparing a thread on RedsZone to a funeral or wake is a pretty big leap.

    And once again, I don't think anyone is personally attacking Reagan in this thread, just his record as president. Its not at all disrespectful to discuss what he did while in office.
    Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.
    --H.L. Mencken

  9. #98
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Let me put it this way folks... the next time someone you know, or were close to (maybe a family member, friend, whatever) dies, then lets see you go to the funeral or the wake and start "highlighting" all their faults and weaknesses and see what it gets you.
    We're not at the man's funeral (as I understand it, that won't happen until Friday). He's not a family member or a friend. We all have a vast emotional distance from the man. He's a public figure, and I don't think there's anything wrong with remembering his faults as well as his strengths.

    If people are offended that others want to discuss those faults, there's a separate thread they can visit to post their fond remembrances.

    Now, if someone posted criticism of Reagan on that other thread, it would really upset me, because it would be incredibly disrespectful to the other members of RedsZone who specifically asked that no one do that.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 06-08-2004 at 05:54 PM.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  10. #99
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    I don't neccessarily disagree with your last sentence, but comparing a thread on RedsZone to a funeral or wake is a pretty big leap.
    I don't care if it's on Redszone or wherever. It's not the place or location, but the timing of the attitude being expressed.

    And once again, I don't think anyone is personally attacking Reagan in this thread, just his record as president. Its not at all disrespectful to discuss what he did while in office.
    Semantics RF. They are basically trying to "backdoor" the guy when they are attacking his administration or record.

    And I could care less if anyone wants to attack Reagan. ALL of our Presidents leave room to be attacked.

    It can be debated all one wants.

    But at this present time, IMO, is not the right place, and is very disrespectful.

    It's all about etiquette, and yes, there is a time and place for everything.

    Obviously, you don't see that.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  11. #100
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    It's not the place or location, but the timing of the attitude being expressed.
    then lets see you go to the funeral or the wake and start "highlighting" all their faults and weaknesses and see what it gets you.
    You made it about the place GAC.

    Discussing the man's administration on an internet message board is a different thing than going to his funeral and bashing him.

    And I hope I'm not the only one that sees the irony here:

    It's not the place or location
    there is a time and place for everything.
    Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.
    --H.L. Mencken

  12. #101
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Would this be the other way around if Clinton died? Just wondering.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  13. #102
    MarsArmyGirl RosieRed's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    But at this present time, IMO, is not the right place, and is very disrespectful.

    It's all about etiquette, and yes, there is a time and place for everything.
    When exactly, then, would you say one can state opinions and thoughts on Reagan and/or his administration, without being disrespectful?

  14. #103
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    By the looks of the view counts on this thread I would say more people are looking at this one than the other one so I will post this here.

    Reagan's biography is on A&E at 8:00 PM Eastern

  15. #104
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Good to see Sen Kerry take the high road.


    Kerry Pays Respects to Reagan

    Tuesday, June 08, 2004



    SIMI VALLEY, Calif. ó John Kerry (search) paused for a moment of silent reflection before the flag-draped casket of former President Reagan (search) on Tuesday, a brief appearance in a national spotlight that suddenly has shifted from politics and the Democratic presidential candidate.

    Head bowed, eyes closed and hands clasped in front, the Massachusetts senator stood for about a minute to pay his respects to Reagan, the Republican icon who died Saturday and whose body lay in repose at the presidential library.

    Kerry, a Roman Catholic, made the sign of the cross and quietly recited the accompanying prayer before departing.

    Like other dignitaries, Kerry did not have to wait hours with tens of thousands of mourners; an exception was made for the candidate and his visit lasted about 20 minutes.

    Traveling to California to attend his daughter's graduation from film school, Kerry decided to make a last-minute trip to the library in Simi Valley, a community northwest of Los Angeles. Aboard his campaign plane, Kerry spoke to reporters about Reagan, the current White House occupant ó President Bush (search) ó and Bush's father.

    "I didn't agree with a lot of the things he was doing, obviously," Kerry said of Reagan, whom he called a "very likable guy." But he added that he got along well with the Republican, was able to work with him and visited the White House a number of times during his two terms.

    "I met with Reagan a lot more than I've met with this president," Kerry said.

    The Democrat also said he had more meetings with George H.W. Bush (search) during his one term than he has had with President Bush.

    "I liked his father very much. I like his dad. He's a very good guy. He used to write notes. I have a number of notes from him. He's very thoughtful," Kerry said.

    Kerry suspended campaign activities this week in deference to Reagan. The presumptive Democratic nominee said he first took note of Reagan in the 1960s, a time when some were wary of the California Republican.

    "He got your notice," Kerry said. He praised Reagan's 1964 speech for Barry Goldwater, calling it "better than anything else you heard from the campaign."

    Kerry's rival, President Bush, will deliver the eulogy for the 40th president during a state funeral Friday at Washington's National Cathedral. Kerry will be one of dozens of notables attending the service, a face in the political crowd.

    In suspending his overt political activities, Kerry risks losing momentum with voters just as Bush's popularity is at its most vulnerable. To do anything else, however, would appear unseemly amid the outpouring of praise for a president remembered for bridging political divisions.

    "Campaigning is campaigning, regardless of where you are and what you're doing," said Stephanie Cutter, the Democrat's spokeswoman. "Out of respect for President Reagan and his family, he felt canceling those campaign events was the right thing to do."

    Marc Kruman, chairman of the Wayne State University Department of History in Detroit, said nobody outside Washington will fault Kerry for taking a week off the campaign trail.

    "It strikes me as a wise decision. He's not going to get any national political attention and it shows his respect for President Reagan, which is appropriate this week," said Kruman, an expert in the history of presidential elections.

    Kerry aides, already split over whether to cancel the week's schedule, remain divided over how soon to renew campaigning. Other Democrats applauded Kerry's decision to set politics aside, though some privately complained that he didn't at least schedule a few non-partisan events in battleground states that could have gained him some local media notice.

    Once again enjoying the advantages of an incumbent, Bush can go about the business of the president without fear of appearing insensitive. By attending D-Day ceremonies in France, hosting world leaders for the the Group of Eight summit and euologizing a GOP icon, Bush takes center stage for a week, unchallenged by Kerry or his immediate surrogates.

    "Look, the president is the president and this is part of the, if not luxury, the advantage of being the sitting president," Democratic strategist Tricia Enright said. "It appears the Kerry campaign is taking that into account and altering its course."

    With political events stripped from his schedule, Kerry and his top advisers were getting behind-the-scenes work accomplished in Washington.

    Bush advisers, meanwhile, insisted that they weren't trying to compare Bush to Reagan for political gain, even as they did so.

    "This week we're focused on paying tribute to him. We will leave it to other people to try to draw contrasts or parallels or similarities," White House communications director Dan Bartlett told CNN.

    A day earlier, Bush campaign chairman Ken Mehlman posted a tribute to Reagan on the campaign's blog that made several comparisons, including: "Just like President Reagan, President George W. Bush speaks with moral clarity about the enemies of freedom."

    Campaign officials said Mehlman's letter was intended for distribution to his staff. A version posted on the campaign's official Web Site did not include the comparison, only praise of the former president.

    Democrats used Reagan's memory to take subtle digs at Bush.

    "There are those who don't seem to be as willing to compromise as President Reagan was" and as a result, things haven't been achieved "that were within our reach," said Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D.

    Asked to compare Reagan to Bush, he said: "This administration has a harder time finding middle ground ... and that's unfortunate."

  16. #105
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Stem-cell research might one day lead to a cure for Alzheimers.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle


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