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Thread: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

  1. #121
    Member GAC's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    Why do I think there would be "backlash" anytime Reagan is/was criticized, even if it's a year from now? I kinda think now is as good a time as any to talk about any and all facets of his presidency.

    Speaking of which, I came across this article earlier. For anyone interested in reading it, it has to do with Reagan's handling of the AIDS crisis. I wonder how many people actually know what went on his administration during that time? It isn't pretty.

    (Warning: The following article could be perceived as being "negative" toward or "disrespectful" of former President Reagan. In fact, it completely supports Michael Allred's ever-so-controversial first post in this thread. So please read it at your own risk.)

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG777163F1.DTL
    And an article/editorial out of San Francisco wouldn't in any way hold any biases now would it?
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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  3. #122
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    And an article/editorial out of San Francisco wouldn't in any way hold any biases now would it?

    I'm fairly certain likewise could be said about one from Bellefontaine.

    But please continue to use that information filter you have there.

  4. #123
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    I just got the impression that Rojo was basically trying to show some sort of irony (or sarcasm) to the fact that Reagan, who opposed stem cell research for various diseases as Alzheimers, died of the disease.
    Stem cell research is less than a decade old. Reagan hasn't made a public statement in ten years. You're putting words in the guys mouth by saying he was against stem cell research. There are more than a few pro-life politicians in favor of stem cell research.

    I'm not sure how much you really know about the subject, so here, maybe you'll be enlightened:

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/007120.htm

    Definition

    A stem cell is a "generic" cell that can make exact copies of itself indefinitely. In addition, a stem cell has the ability to produce specialized cells for various tissues in the body -- such as heart muscle, brain tissue, and liver tissue. Scientists are able to maintain stem cells forever, developing them into specialized cells as needed.

    There are two basic types:

    Embryonic stem cells - these are obtained from either aborted fetuses or fertilized eggs that are left over from in vitro fertilization (IVF). They are useful for medical and research purposes because they can produce cells for almost every tissue in the body.

    Adult stem cells - these are not as versatile for research purposes because they are specific to certain cell types, such as blood, intestines, skin, and muscle. The term "adult stem cell" may be misleading because both children and adults have them.
    In August 2001, President George W. Bush approved limited federal funding for stem cell research. While stem cell research has the potential to provide major medical advances, including cures for many diseases, stem cell research is controversial.

    Information


    Potential uses for stem cells

    There are many areas in medicine where stem cell research could have a significant impact. For example, there are a variety of diseases and injuries in which a patient's cells or tissues are destroyed and must be replaced by tissue or organ transplants. Stem cells may be able to generate brand new tissue in these cases, and even cure diseases for which currently there is no adequate therapy. Diseases that could see revolutionary advances include Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease, diabetes, spinal cord injury, heart disease, stroke, arthritis, cancer, and burns.

    Stem cells could also be used to gain a better understanding of how genetics work in the early stages of cell development. This can help scientists understand why some cells develop abnormally and lead to medical problems such as birth defects and cancer. By understanding the genetic basis for cell development, scientists may learn how to prevent some of these diseases.

    Finally, stem cells may be useful in the testing and development of drugs. Because stem cells can be used to create unlimited amounts of specialized tissue, such as heart tissue, it may be possible to test how drugs react on these specialized tissues before trying the drugs on animals and human subjects. Drugs could be tested for effectiveness and side effects more rapidly.

    Controversy about stem cell research

    The use of embryonic stem cells is controversial. The controversy is based on the belief by opponents that a fertilized egg is fundamentally a human being with rights and interests that need to be protected. Those who oppose stem cell research do not want fetuses and fertilized eggs used for research purposes.

    Supporters of stem cell research argue that the fertilized eggs are donated with consent from each couple and would be discarded anyway. Therefore, there is no potential for those fertilized eggs to become human beings. Fertilized eggs are not (at this time) being created specifically for stem cell research.

    As with any moral and ethical issue, the controversy surrounding stem cell research will likely continue for quite some time. Supporters believe that an aggressive federal program is needed before the potential of stem cell research can be realized. At this time, federal funding is limited to stem cell lines that already exist. The funding does not support further destruction of fertilized eggs. This is based on the idea that the "life and death" decision on the existing stem cell lines has already been made. Thus, a compromise has been made that supports medical research and respects the fundamental moral issues associated with the potential for life.


    Update Date: 11/17/2003
    Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.
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  5. #124
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    As RF posted, Reagan didn't have a position on Stem Cell research, my statement was to highlight that the real way we could honor him is to end some of the restrictions on research.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  6. #125
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    As RF posted, Reagan didn't have a position on Stem Cell research, my statement was to highlight that the real way we could honor him is to end some of the restrictions on research.
    My grandmother died of Alzheimer's, horrible way to go. It's like losing somebody, but seeing their doppleganger in front of you. Nancy Reagan's quite reasonable pleas for increased stem cell research (in vitro labs produce stem cells by the score) have been met with the same deafness on the right that the Bradys encountered concerning readily available handguns. Kind of ironic that Reagan, the grandfather of the modern culture wars, created a party that refuses to learn from his example.
    He'll probably be all right.

  7. #126
    MarsArmyGirl RosieRed's Avatar
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    Re: President Reagan’s health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    And an article/editorial out of San Francisco wouldn't in any way hold any biases now would it?
    GAC, you can cry "bias" all you want, but it is a fact that Reagan and his administration did nothing about the AIDS crisis for years and years.

    Maybe that doesn't bother you? All I know is it does not sit well with me.

    Did you even read the article? I had said earlier in this thread that I hope no one is implying that anyone deserves to get AIDS -- and that is a viewpoint at least some in Reagan's administration held, that the people who contracted this disease got what they deserved.

    From the article:

    The president's advisers, Koop said, "took the stand, 'They are only getting what they justly deserve.' "
    Reagan's communications director Pat Buchanan argued that AIDS is "nature's revenge on gay men."
    As for your stance on stem cell research: Though I don't agree with it, I can understand someone not wanting aborted fetuses used for any medical research purposes. But what about all the embryos created at fertility clinics? A couple who can't conceive a baby goes in for in-virto fertilization. Embryos are created for said couple, only some of which are used. You would rather have the rest of the embryos thrown out as medical waste instead of using them (at the couple's consent) for stem cell research?

    The potential for stem cell research is vast and promising. The potential number and types of diseases (listed in Redsfaithful's post) that could be cured as a result of stem cell research is astounding. Yet you would rather not see any of that happen? Instead, we'll just throw those "human beings" from the fertility clinic away? Sorry GAC, but that is a line of thinking I'll never understand.

  8. #127
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Lot of that going on in this thread.

  9. #128
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieRed
    But what about all the embryos created at fertility clinics? A couple who can't conceive a baby goes in for in-virto fertilization. Embryos are created for said couple, only some of which are used. You would rather have the rest of the embryos thrown out as medical waste instead of using them (at the couple's consent) for stem cell research?
    Don't wait up for an answer. There isn't one. It's every bit as baffling as if the government suddenly banned organ donations.

    What Bush did with his stem cell decision was throw a bone to right wing reactionary know-nothings to keep them sated. Craven politics and it's messing with people's lives, with their hopes of a cure for their afflictions. Stem cell was an abortion substitute, an issue they successfully muddled to make it look like anti-abortion action to their political base. The two only have a tangential relationship and the right and decent thing to do would have been to have lawmakers debate whether aborted fetal tissue could be used as well as in vitro.
    He'll probably be all right.

  10. #129
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Gee Michael. When any of the other past Presidents, or even world leaders or people of great prominence, passed away, society (including the media) took the time to cover the event of the funeral and everything else that surrounded it. There has always been alot of pomp and ceremony surrounding these situations. It was very similar with the Kennedys, DeGaulle, Johnson, Nixon, Princess Di, and many other famous people of note.

    They are not doing anything out of the unusual for Reagan. And yes, I have been watching it on most of the networks.

    But don't worry Michael...it'll all die down soon. But for the week following any death of someone as notable (especially a former President), you are going to get this kind of coverage, which is pretty routine, and is simply society paying their last respects while reflecting on that individual's life and accomplishments.
    and yet I don't recall people clamoring for Nixon's head to be added to Mt. Rushmore or Johnson or....


    I'm sorry, but Reagan was a very popular President. And there is nothing you can do to change that.
    You can get people to open their eyes to all facets of a person, not just the fake "sunny optimism" that has been crammed down our throats.

    And they'll do the same for the next Prez who dies, and anyone else of notability, who was seen by so many in this country/world as being a great influence on our society.
    I think we're watching different news coverage. You're watching FOX "news" mostly right?

    and for the 3rd...4th... and final time...I simply said that the intent of this thread was for people to basically pay their last respects to a former President that passed away. Not politicize it, nor use it for a partisan rant. There is always a time and place for it; but this thread was not started for that purpose, and IMO, I feel it is inappropriate.
    and here we go with that tired argument again. I wasn't the first person to bring up politics, just the first one to be critical and we've seen how Republicans act when you disagree with them. I'm surprised nobody has called me a traitor yet



    Start a new thread if you feel so strongly about it. Then take all the "digs" you want at this deceased President. I don't think the Gipper will mind.

    I believe this thread has already been well established for taking a critical look at Reagan, no new thread is necessary.

    He frustrated the hell out of liberals when he was alive with his communication skills and quick whit. Now that he can't respond back, I guess it's only appropriate for you to want to respond. So fire away!
    I've looooong been saying my piece about Reagan. Believe it or not, I actually have conversations outside of Redszone.

  11. #130
    Member GAC's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    And thus saith the left!
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  12. #131
    Member GAC's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    I'm fairly certain likewise could be said about one from Bellefontaine.

    But please continue to use that information filter you have there.
    Gee. woy. Do you read the Bellefontaine Examiner? If you don't think there is a bias on the gay issue in San Francisco, then I really don't know what to say.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  13. #132
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Stem cell research is less than a decade old. Reagan hasn't made a public statement in ten years. You're putting words in the guys mouth by saying he was against stem cell research. There are more than a few pro-life politicians in favor of stem cell research.

    I'm not sure how much you really know about the subject, so here, maybe you'll be enlightened:

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/007120.htm
    Ah yes...a 22 yr old with access to Google is a dangerous thing!

    This is not the first time (nor probably the last), that you've come on here with your elitist attitude wanting to "enlighten" others.
    Last edited by GAC; 06-09-2004 at 09:00 PM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  14. #133
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Gee. woy. Do you read the Bellefontaine Examiner? If you don't think there is a bias on the gay issue in San Francisco, then I really don't know what to say.
    Actually I think bias exists everywhere, in everyone.

    What I don't believe is pointing the finger and saying "Bias" whenever one's POV is questioned.

    We're all angry pink apes with agendas.

  15. #134
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Ah yes...a 22 yr old with access to Google is a dangerous thing!
    Less dangerous than an old man with a closed mind I'd wager.
    Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.
    --H.L. Mencken

  16. #135
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    Re: President Reaganís health said to have deteriorated

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Less dangerous than an old man with a closed mind I'd wager.
    There's that "elitist" attitude shining through again.

    Closed to what? Harvesting human embyros in order to do promising medical research depends on what you think those embryos are? If they have the moral status of persons, which many including myself do, then they can not be treated as a means to even the most humanitarian end.

    Maybe we need to apologize to the Nazi regime, and it's hordes of scirentists who also prided themselves in advancing science via human experimentation and the devaluing of life.

    Yes...valuing life is very closed mind.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)


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