Originally Posted by RedsBaron
I don't need to defend Bush. There is enought 'followers' around here to do that.
I don't need to defend Bush. There is enought 'followers' around here to do that.
Last edited by RBA; 07-20-2004 at 08:01 PM.
So the Bush administration concocted this whole thing huh to embarass the poor, poor Democrats/John Kerry?
I find it interesting that when a Repub/conservative is caught up in something (and NO, not all of us give them our blanket support either), it's those nasty, mean-spirited, evil, conspiratory Republicans.
And when a Democrat gets caught up in something such as this..where the guy is caught, and his actions witnessed by federal employees, and caught on tape, it's again... those nasty, mean-spiritied, evil, conspiratory Republicans out to get us.
Now will the Bush administration try to use this? Heck yes! It's an election year. And so would the Dems if the tables were turned. And both sides have before in the past. So lets not be surprised about this. This is the nasty side of politics that most of your average Americans don't like one bit.
But please don't try to blame Bush, or his administration, or anyone else for the stupid and possibly criminal actions of this bungling former National Security Advisor, and for possibly giving them some ammunition that they may be able to use. He, and he alone, is responsible/accountable for what he has done (or was attempting to do).
What was the purpose of the 9/11 Commission? What was this bi-partisan committee's objective? And I find it very interesting, and yes, very suspect, that Mr Berger, who held one of the most important high-level security positions within the Clinton Cabinet, who helped to organize, direct, and advice the President on their policy in fighting terrorism, would be dumb enough to do such actions. Here he was to testify before this commission, and is asked by them to go over and review high-level security documents specifically related to the previous administrations activity/policy on terrorism, in order to aid this fact finding commission in their inquiry. He decides instead to remove several of those documents, and destroy some of them, PRIOR TO his testimony.
Now it is obvious, and for natonal security reasons, that we, the American people, will most likely never know what was in those highly classified documents. Even the 9/11 Commission, in their final report/analysis, is not going to give out all the details in full.
But it is very obvious to most who are following this story that there was something in those documents Berger took that he thought he might possibly be able to keep from this commission, and back up the testimony he was to give.
But that is the funny thing about this whole incident...
Did he KNOW, at that time, that those were copies, and that therefore, the originals still existed?
That even though he was the former National Security Advisor, he was still in a secure area of the National Archives, and that there were cameras/employees still monitoring the actions of anyone in that room?
My opinion? No he didn't. Or else he wouldn't have done what he did.
And when the FBI comes to his house to search, and he returns most of those documents to the National Archives, some were somehow "inadvertently discarded".
Yes, there is more to come from this. And yes, Bush will use it if he can.
But don't fault Bush if he uses it. Be more upset that someone from Democratic side was stupid enough to do something like this. Especially one who was advicing your candidate.
I've never stated that guys like Cheney and Rumsfield are the most ethical people in the world. And there has been more then enough to come out in this last year to be critical of them on. But at least Bush will stand behind his people, even at a political risk.
Has Kerry done the same with Berger? Especially if he is only guilty of "sloppiness"?
Last edited by GAC; 07-20-2004 at 10:20 PM.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Tell that to George Tenet.But at least Bush will stand behind his people, even at a political risk.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Excuse me. That was solely Tenet's decision (who by the way, was not a Bush appointee). Bush on a consistent basis, and throughout this whole ordeal, stood publically by Tenet when he could have abandoned him long ago. Even when some within his own Party were calling for Tenet's resignation.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...irq.wmdspeech/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in562996.shtml
Now there are some who are speculating that they will make Tenet the scapegoat; but that has yet to happen.
What led to Tenet's resignation was the findings of the 9/11 Commission. The Commission (not the Bush administration) directly faulted CIA Director George Tenet for his management strategy to battle terrorism after 9/11.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...11.commission/
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
A fitting punishment for this crime is some time in a Federal Prison. Which is what any other "normal" person would be looking at if they removed classified material from a secure location.In that case, I hope the media makes a Freedom of Information Act request for that video. Having those images splashed all over the news for a few days is probably a fitting punishment for this crime.
What it does not warrant is a lengthy investigation or messy hearings.
If I was stupid enough to go to work today and then knowingly walk out with classified material, AFOSI and the FBI would make sure I lose my clearance, lose my job, and lose my freedom.
Will trade this space for a #1 starter.
Well said. Creek, doesn't this whole story just sound strange? I can't figure out why Berger did what he did or why he thought he could "get away with it."
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
After listening to a bit more talk radio discussion this morning and an interview with someone who has been in that particular special area at the national archives, I have new questions and a new opinion.
How did Berger manage to evade the search of his belongings and his person and secret these documents out of the secure area - especially when there was video surveillance footage of him doing the deed? And why isn't there similar culpability for the security people who apparently bungled the search of his person and belongings as he exited?
Now that I've heard more details about the documents he liberated (covert operations techniques and 5 drafts of the same document), I see that this was no simple oversight and I agree with creek that some prison time is warranted.
/r/reds
Berger stepped down from Kerry's campaign of his own free will, Tenet stepped down of his own free will.
You think Berger was "pushed", I think Tenet was "pushed". What's the difference here? You don't know for sure, I don't know for sure.
Both resigned after something disgraceful or unseemly, Berger with this, Tenet with the Iraqi war.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
DNC Press Release MCAULIFFE FILES FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST; Requests All Documents Shared Between the Department of Justice and White House Regarding Investigation of Sandy Berger
Wed Jul 21 2004 13:17:22 ET
Washington, D.C. -In response to the questionable timing of the public release of information regarding the investigation of former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger, Democratic National Committee Chair Terry McAuliffe officially filed a Freedom of Information Act request today for the release of correspondence between the Department of Justice and the White House regarding this investigation.
Below is a copy of McAuliffe's official letter of request.
Melanie Ann Pustay, Deputy Director
Office of Information and Policy
Department of Justice
Suite 570, Flag Building
Washington, D.C. 20530-0001
July 21, 2004
Dear Ms. Pustay:
This letter constitutes a request under the Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA"), 5 U.S.C. §552, and is submitted on behalf of the Democratic National Committee.
According to recent reporting, an investigation into former National Security Adviser Samuel Berger has been going on for at least nine months, since October 2003. Yet, the criminal investigation only came to light three days prior to the release of a report expected to be critical of the Bush administration's lack of focus on the events leading up to the 9-11 attacks. As conservative scholar Norm Ornstein stated, "you can't look at the timing of this with anything but an enormous amount of skepticism." [CNN, 7/20/04]
In light of the seriousness of the possibility that the Bush administration and the Department of Justice have politicized an ongoing investigation, it is imperative that this Freedom of Information request is responded to in an expedited manner.
Under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. 552 and the regulations of the Department of Justice, 28 C.F.R. §16.3, I am requesting copies of the following:
Any and all communications relating or referring to the investigation of Samuel ("Sandy") Berger, between, correspondence (including electronic mail) between, memoranda between, phone records of communications between, meeting notes and/or minutes of meetings between, on the one hand, any official or employee of the US Department of Justice AND, on the other hand, (i) the Executive Office of the President or any unit or office thereof (including but not limited to the Office of the Vice President); (ii) any official, employee, or representative of the Republican National Committee; OR (iii) any official, employee or representative of the Bush-Cheney 2004 presidential campaign.
This request covers all documents created during the period from and including October 1, 2003 through and including July 20, 2004.
For your purposes in filling this request, please consider me under the category of "all other organizations," as defined by the Freedom of Information Act. If there are any fees for copying or searching for the records I have requested, please inform me of the cost prior to searching or copying, and only if the total exceeds $100.
If all or any part of this request is denied, please cite the specific exemption which you believe justifies your refusal to release the information and inform me of your agency's administrative appeal procedures available to me under the law.
Please provide all information on a rolling basis if possible. I appreciate your handling of this request as quickly as possible and I look forward to hearing from you within 20 working days, as the law stipulates.
If you have any questions or need further information concerning the above request, please contact me at the address below or at 202-863-8121.
Thank you for your attention to this request.
Sincerely,
Terence R. McAuliffe, Chairman
430 South Capitol Street, SE
Washington, DC 20003
Yeah, the timing of this wasn't political at all.According to recent reporting, an investigation into former National Security Adviser Samuel Berger has been going on for at least nine months, since October 2003.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
No one here has said it's not being politically used. That does not belay the fact of what Berger did. It was stupid, and maybe criminal. Since you have now entered this discussion (which is fine), would you like to offer your explanation of why this fomer National Security Advisor, went sent by the 9/11 Commission to review and critique high level intelligence documents to deem their relevance/impotance to their investigation, would stuff documents from a secure area into his pockets and then discard some? And all this PRIOR TO his testimony before that commission?
Heck yes the Repubs are going to use it if they can. And so would the Dems if the tables were turned. That doesn't make irrelevant to what Berger did.
Gee Rob. Thanks for posting a letter by partisan Democratic National Committee Chair Terry McAuliffe, who simply requests correspondences between the Justice Department and the White House.
And this breaks the law how?
If Mr Berger broke federal law (and that is being investigated as we speak), and it MAY involve Berger trying to hinder/obstruct an official investigation by the 9/11 Commission, then please explain why the White House should not be allowed to keep tabs on this with the Justice Department?
Is there a political aspect to this. Sure. But again. What laws have been broken.
Mr McAuliffe, whose own personal ethics/business practices can be questioned, is simply trying to perform damage contol (which I don't blame him for).
If the Justice Department, from it's investigation, finds nothing, then guess what?.... case closed. And then there is really nothing the Bush administration can do about it.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
I don't have one. It was clearly a pretty stupid thing to do, and I sincerely hope he didn't do it maliciously.It was stupid, and maybe criminal. Since you have now entered this discussion (which is fine), would you like to offer your explanation of why this fomer National Security Advisor, went sent by the 9/11 Commission to review and critique high level intelligence documents to deem their relevance/impotance to their investigation, would stuff documents from a secure area into his pockets and then discard some?
What I'm tired of though is every time bad news is coming for Bush & Co. they pull the old "Hey, look over here!" routine so that people don't pay as much attention. Terror alerts that serve no purpose and release no information, the Columbus mall thing that took place last fall but was announced months later... it gets old after awhile.
The 9/11 commission report is coming out this week, and the Democratic convention starts next Monday. Nothing earth shattering has happened with Berger in recent days, but the Bush administration knew that now was the time to release this. It's ridiculous.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Maybe in your eyes these Terror Alerts serve no purpose; but neither you nor I are able to listen to the various "chatter" that our intelligence sources pick up.
An Alert simply is telling the citizens to be vigilant, attentive, and watchful. Nothing more. If you think they are doing this to simply distract Americans then that is your opinion. But I don't think that is the case at all.
They are "damned if they do, and damned if they do" with you guys.
Let the investigation run it's course, and lets see what happens. It's not Bush's fault that Berger is being investigated for what he did.
And I'm sure the left is not planning anything "special" at all when the Republican Convention starts, right?
Last edited by GAC; 07-21-2004 at 04:54 PM.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Perception is in the brain of each individual. I am sure some will say that Sen. Kerry is always on the uppity-up in the world of politics. Read the following paragraph and tell us what you think of certain types of political behavior (and welcome to American Politics, where all sides do it to some extent)...
From the 1964 Presidential election: Democrat Lyndon Johnson painted his Republican opponent as a right-wing kook who couldn't be trusted to have his finger on the nuclear button. Johnson's still haunting 'Daisy' campaign ad -- with images of a little girl counting daisy petals giving way to those of a nuclear blast countdown -- only ran once, but Americans got the message. Barry Goldwater lost big, winning only six states and 38 percent of the vote.
What could Bush do that would upset you GAC? I'm pretty pissed off at Sandy Berger right now, I'm just curious if you ever feel that way with regards to Bush or anyone on the conservative side of things. In the last year I've not seen anything like that from you, despite you saying that if WMD weren't found you'd have some misgivings about the Bush administration. Or do you still think we might find some?An Alert simply is telling the citizens to be vigilant, attentive, and watchful. Nothing more. If you think they are doing this to simply distract Americans then that is your opinion. But I don't think that is the case at all.
RFA, I'm not sure you want to turn such a sympathetic eye towards Barry Goldwater. He's not someone I'd be proud of having in my camp, but maybe you feel differently.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
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