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Thread: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

  1. #46
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    What could Bush do that would upset you GAC? I'm pretty pissed off at Sandy Berger right now, I'm just curious if you ever feel that way with regards to Bush or anyone on the conservative side of things. In the last year I've not seen anything like that from you, despite you saying that if WMD weren't found you'd have some misgivings about the Bush administration. Or do you still think we might find some?
    We were talking about Terror Alerts weren't we? You show me WHY I should be upset at Bush because Homeland Security periodically issues alerts due to terrorist chatter they pick up? With that I am not upset at all. I know many of you on the left think these are issued simply as diversionary tactics by the Bush administration; but then you try and grasp at anything you can.

    And I have already stated previously on here my disagreement with Bush on his handling of the deficit and various other bills/laws that he has supported/proposed. I'm just not a member of the "Angry Left" who look to guys like Micheal Moore for any little thing they can on this adminstration.

    And I never see you on here expressing you distaste or anger with anything the Democratic Party/Left does. You seem to do a pretty good job "covering" and making excuses for them whenever you can.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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  3. #47
    Dunnilicious creek14's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Well said. Creek, doesn't this whole story just sound strange? I can't figure out why Berger did what he did or why he thought he could "get away with it."
    As I have said in the past, I usually vote Dem. I voted for Clinton and I really, really liked Berger in his administration. I am so disappointed with him.

    There are proper ways to hand carry classified material. I am sure if Berger had asked someone to prepare the material for him to take, they would have done so.

    This whole thing is really bothering me. Was he sneaking for nefarious reasons or is he such a cocky SOB he thought he could get away with it?

    Either way he needs to pay.
    Will trade this space for a #1 starter.

  4. #48
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    RFA, I'm not sure you want to turn such a sympathetic eye towards Barry Goldwater. He's not someone I'd be proud of having in my camp, but maybe you feel differently.
    Don't know if are being cute or totally missed my point? My point was... "dirty politics" takes place on both (all) sides. It is not new either. I pointed out one case in which "dirty politics" (portraying the opponent as trigger happy w/ nukes) was used... and was very effective. Like it or not, it is a part of our political system. I do not care for it, but I have learned to accept it from the people I vote for and the ones I do not. It is a part of the system.

    In regard to your accusation that President Bush and/or Sec. Ridge are using terror alerts as a political tool, that is nothing more than your opinion. You state it as if it is fact, but it is not. There are people who probably believe this (Michael Moore?), but I see no proof. Just accusations. Nothing new from the Bush-hating crowd.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  5. #49
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    Don't know if are being cute or totally missed my point? My point was... "dirty politics" takes place on both (all) sides. It is not new either. I pointed out one case in which "dirty politics" (portraying the opponent as trigger happy w/ nukes) was used... and was very effective. Like it or not, it is a part of our political system. I do not care for it, but I have learned to accept it from the people I vote for and the ones I do not. It is a part of the system.

    In regard to your accusation that President Bush and/or Sec. Ridge are using terror alerts as a political tool, that is nothing more than your opinion. You state it as if it is fact, but it is not. There are people who probably believe this (Michael Moore?), but I see no proof. Just accusations. Nothing new from the Bush-hating crowd.
    No, I got your point, and my point was that it wasn't that dirty politically. If Goldwater had been elected I think the commercial would have come true. The man was a nut.
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  6. #50
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    No, I got your point, and my point was that it wasn't that dirty politically. If Goldwater had been elected I think the commercial would have come true. The man was a nut.
    I guess we could argue the Daisy commercial, but we both know that "it" happens from both sides. I think we agree(!) that it is not right. But unfortunately we cannot do anything about it. Those we elect can, but then freedom of speech will be thrown into it and so on and so forth. I even shake my head when the person I will vote for runs a "dirty" ad. It has never swayed my vote of course, but I think it is a shame that our system has to use these tactics in the election process. We even do it here. It is a part of the process. Sad but true.

    You may be right about Barry! As he got older, he got nuttier. But the Daisy ad is till cited as one of the most influential media events in politics. It only ran once partly b/c it was perceived as "dirty" (and the times were more stringent in these matters).
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  7. #51
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    In the last year I've not seen anything like that from you, despite you saying that if WMD weren't found you'd have some misgivings about the Bush administration. Or do you still think we might find some?
    Forgot to address this point (and for the final and last time )

    What I said exactly (and you can check the archives if you wish)...is that if it is proven that Bush, with premeditation purposely falsified intelligence in order to deceive and mislead the American public, that he should be impeached.

    That is EXACTLY what I said, and I still stand by it.

    And evidence is not people from the angry far left sceaming "Bush is a Liar!" either.

    It's obvious, and I've stated this on here too, that they are not going to find WMD in Iraq. And it is also now obvious, and the upcoming bipatrisan 9/11 will confirm it, that our intelligence agencies, in every avenue, and with this administration and the previous one, has some very deep flaws in it's gathering and coordination methods. We didn't take the threats seriously and acted very lacklusterly and with indifference. It needs to be corrected.

    And I believe that Bush should come out and apologize to the American public for OUR govenment acting on inaccurate intelligence, and relying also on the testimony of defectors who obviously didn't have all the facts.

    But it ain't gonna happen because it's an election year. And if the tables were turned, a Dem wouldn't do it either.

    But I do not believe that Bush purposely lied and tried to manipulate the American public. And I've stated the following before, but you obviously like to read right over it. So I'll ask you again.... Why, when he knew all along that there was no physical evidence of WMD, would he perpetrate a huge lie to go to war, KNOWING that once we got in there they would never be found, and he would get hung politically, and have to carry that shame/disgrace for the rest of his life?

    And if Bush lied, then so did every member in Congress (both Repub and Dem) who stood on the floor of Congress and in public and firmly stated the same things that this administration did concerning Iraq and WMD.

    You accuse me of standing by Bush. I'm no more ashamed of that then you are of carrying the label "Bleeding Heart Liberal". Conservatives aren't the ones out there shying away from the conservative label; but an awful lot of high-profile liberals sure are ashamed of, and try to shy away from having the liberal tag put on them (Kerry is one of them).

    You guys on the left don't want the truth...you simply want Bush at any cost.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  8. #52
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    If, after it is all over, it turns out that there were no WMD, and the intelligence community really screwed up, then I will be one of the first to be calling for people's heads... and that people within this administration need to be held accountable.
    That's what you said on June 9th, 2003.
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  9. #53
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    The bottom line on the Sandy Berger story is that the 9/11 commission says his actions did not hinder its work or prevent the commissioners from reviewing and processing vital information.

    From USA Today: "There is no indication that Berger's action affected the 9/11 commission's work; a spokesman for the panel said Tuesday that the classified papers — some of which are still missing — were copies of original documents."

    Yes, removing classified documents from the National Archives is wrong – illegal even. But the consequences here don't support the conspiracy theories being bandied about – that Berger tried to cover-up flaws in the Clinton administration's handling of terrorism or was stealing documents for the Kerry campaign. Leave it to John McCain to distinguish himself again as a voice of reason: "McCain called Berger 'a fine and honorable man who we should presume innocent until proven guilty.'"

    Why, when he knew all along that there was no physical evidence of WMD, would he perpetrate a huge lie to go to war, KNOWING that once we got in there they would never be found, and he would get hung politically, and have to carry that shame/disgrace for the rest of his life?

    No matter which way youy slice it, he is the Commander-in-Chief, and the responsibility falls on him. He takes the credit if this thing goes well, so it his shoulders the blame rests on as well when things go terribly wrong. To point fingers at Bill Clinton and John Kerry saying, "They thought the same thing" is highly unbecoming of the party of personal responsibility.

    Congress was not petitioning Bush to go to war and BIll Clinton wasn't either - it was the other way around. Bush came to them. They took the evidence Bush presented (in a highly exaggerated way, I might add, with talk of mushroom clouds and Rumsfeld's claim of "we know where they are.")

    I think Bush felt they were there, without or without evidence, and he was going to be the "war president" hero when he was proven right.

    Alas, he was wrong, and he has given his opponents the biggest piece of evidence in the history of mankind in the case against preemptive strikes.

    There is a difference between knowing and suspecting, and Bush didn't see that, or even worse, saw it and chose to ignore it.

    When Clinton was impeached for lying about sex, one GOP congressman said that it was important to go through all of that because we need to know that a man with his finger so close to the button is truthful (i.e. if he'd lie to his wife, then it necessaruly follows that he'd lie about making decisions involving war, which is absurd).

    While his analogy is flawed beyond recognition, I would argue that Bush's competence is a bigger issue here. I think we would all like to think that the man behind the desk would be able to decipher what is good intelligence and what is bad intelligence before commiting thousands of troops to a cause that is now pretty much unjust because the ends did not justify the means.

    Bush hit the button for all the wrong reasons and the GOP privately is hoping it doesn't cost them two branches of government.

    Bush rallied an entire nation to war, accused those who doubted him of being unpatriotic, and then when found to be wrong, simply tells us that it was right anyway, even though the reasons he gives now were not important at the time.

    My feeling is that this has already cost him the election and perhaps rightfully so.
    Last edited by Dom Heffner; 07-21-2004 at 10:00 PM.

  10. #54
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    The bottom line on the Sandy Berger story is that the 9/11 commission says his actions did not hinder its work or prevent the commissioners from reviewing and processing vital information.
    One more bottom line... the man broke the law. I tend to think that Mr. Berger is too intelligent to accidently break a law. I am not sure what his intentions were (although I have some good ideas), but he broke the law.

    Why do I feel it is important to mention this? Because a lot of the Bush-hating crowd likes to throw out accusations of the Bush Administration breaking laws... Halliburton, lying, etc., etc.. These accusers have no proof. Not one iota of proof. Just hate-filled accusations... with no evidence. I guess you could say that some of these accusations against the current administration are lies. Go figure.

    So now I read that it seems to be okay to break laws as long as the 9/11 Commission doesn't have a problem with it? WHAT?!? HUH?!? Brings back memories of people saying lying in a court of law is okay since a man's personal business is not the court's business. The same man who was being sued for sexual harrassment.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  11. #55
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    But I can tell you it is not unusual for people to mistakenly take classified materials. But you can go ahead and listen to the Republican talking points put out to the media for the next three days if it pleases you.
    Who's making talking points? It's quite obvious that if someone in the Bush administration, or the previous Bush administration for that matter, had done this you'd be all over it like white on rice. But, as the Democratic talking points tell us, if Democrats do it then quickly minimize its importance or sweep it under the political rug. They can't possibly ever do anything questionable, can they?

  12. #56
    Dunnilicious creek14's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner
    The bottom line on the Sandy Berger story is that the 9/11 commission says his actions did not hinder its work or prevent the commissioners from reviewing and processing vital information.
    No, the bottom line is that he removed classified material from a secure location and took it to his home. And some of that material is still missing.
    Will trade this space for a #1 starter.

  13. #57
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by creek14
    No, the bottom line is that he removed classified material from a secure location and took it to his home. And some of that material is still missing.
    Creek, are there not duplicate copies of any thing Berger took? I don't know, but it seems to me there should be.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  14. #58
    Dunnilicious creek14's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Creek, are there not duplicate copies of any thing Berger took? I don't know, but it seems to me there should be.
    There is really no way of knowing that. I would think if something is in the National archives, there would be copies. But in my experience (which is pretty extensive when it comes to security, I use to be a contractor special security officer and a communications security custodian) you try not to have too many copies of classified material because you have to account for all the stuff you have.

    I know someone in this thread (don't remember who right now) said that people accidently walk out of places with classified material all the time. I really don't agree with that (unless you work at Los Alamos). And even if that were true, people don't "accidently" stuff classified material down their pants or socks or underwear or wherever Berger put this stuff.

    I would assume that when Berger was in the Clinton admin, he had proper storage at home and was allowed to take classifed material home. But that wouldn't be the case now. He knew he couldn't remove that material to his home, but he made the decision to do so anyway. That's a violation punishable by prision time. But he'll never see the inside of a cell.
    Will trade this space for a #1 starter.

  15. #59
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Quote Originally Posted by creek14
    He knew he couldn't remove that material to his home, but he made the decision to do so anyway. That's a violation punishable by prision time. But he'll never see the inside of a cell.
    But he should IMO.
    Thanks for the info.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #60
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Clinton National Security Advisor Sandy Berger Took Terror Files

    Who are these people who alledgelly saw Berger slip classified material in his underwear and why did they not stop him at the time of the incident?


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