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Thread: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

  1. #31
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    I would have a hard time chosing between Bench and Robinson.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Joe Morgan. Although, of course, Barry is my sentimental favorite and I would regard him as the best shortstop Cincinnati ever had.

  4. #33
    Just The Big Picture macro's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Johnny Bench, and no one else is really close. All the reasons have already been given...

    Help stamp out, eliminate, and do away with redundancy.

  5. #34
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    In terms of peak value, Joe Morgan. From 1972 through 1976, especially 1975-76, Morgan was IMO the greatest Red ever. Johnny Bench and Frank Robinson would be 2nd and 3rd.
    From 1972 through 1976 Morgan had Win Shares per season of 39, 40, 37, 44 and 37. Bench's best five year run was between 1970 and 1974: 34, 19, 37, 26 and 34. Robinson had a run with the Reds between 1961 and 1965 of 34, 41, 23, 33 and 26 Win Shares. Pete Rose had a run between 1968 and 1972 of 32, 37, 29, 28 and 32 Win Shares, then Rose ripped off another five years between 1973 and 1977 of 34, 27, 31, 30 and 23.
    Career value: Pete Rose, with 547 Win Shares (462 with the Reds). Morgan's career total was 512 (262 with the Reds) and Bench's was 356 (all with the Reds). Frank Robinson had 519 career Win Shares, 252 of which came as a Red.
    The Win Shares concept in an interesting one RedsBaron. But what does it score for defense? Not only was Bench the best defensive catcher in baseball from '68-'78, there was a large margin between #1 and #2. This at a time when baserunning had so much more importance than it does today and Bench was able to cut those would-be stealers down.

    Joe Morgan and Frank Robinson were obviously great, but they didn't spend enough time with the Reds. Especially Robinson who went on to have so many great years with the Orioles. Pete Rose is #2 in my book, behind Bench because Rose was more one-dimensional and left the Reds in '79 for more money with the Phillies.

  6. #35
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    It's close. I'd probably take Morgan or Robinson's best five years over Bench's best five years. But I'd certainly take Bench's best 10 years over Morgan's best 10 years. It's all a question of "peak" vs. longevity. They were all three one-in-a-million type of performers.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  7. #36
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Put me in the "without question" group for... JOHNNY BENCH.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  8. #37
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    My grandfather, who first started following the Reds back in the days of Chick Hafey and Kiki Cuyler, said Joe Morgan was the best best player he'd ever seen.

    I think Bench's greatness lies not only in his hitting, but his redefinition of catching on the defensive side. But I'm biased because Bench was my favorite player when I first started following the Reds.

    So I declare it a tie, Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench.

  9. #38
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Eric Davis... in the summer of 1987.

    For us nine-year-old Reds fans that year, there wasn't a better ballplayer in the whole galaxy.

  10. #39
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    The Win Shares concept in an interesting one RedsBaron. But what does it score for defense? Not only was Bench the best defensive catcher in baseball from '68-'78, there was a large margin between #1 and #2. This at a time when baserunning had so much more importance than it does today and Bench was able to cut those would-be stealers down.

    Joe Morgan and Frank Robinson were obviously great, but they didn't spend enough time with the Reds. Especially Robinson who went on to have so many great years with the Orioles. Pete Rose is #2 in my book, behind Bench because Rose was more one-dimensional and left the Reds in '79 for more money with the Phillies.
    Phoenix, I know that Bill James's Win Shares method includes defense in the overall rating, so Morgan's higher numbers in his peak years, as compared to Bench, should include both their offensive and defensive contributions. You'd have to read James's book on Win Shares for an explanation, and even then you might wind up like me-liking the theory without fully understanding or being able to explain it.
    James has admitted that it is difficult for sabermetrics to accurately measure the defense of catchers. Catchers' putouts are largely a function of how many strikeouts a pitching staff produces, something not all that much in a catcher's control. Catchers' assists are greatly affected by how many runners are willing to challenge the catcher's arm-after Bench had been in the NL a few months opposing teams generally abandoned the stolen base when playing the Reds. For these and other reasons Total Baseball (not a James's work) has abysmally failed to accurately measure Bench's defensive abilities, at one point ranking him as a terrible defensive catcher. In truth, from everything I've read and seen, Bench is probably the greatest defensive catcher ever, rivaled only by Ivan Rodriguez.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #40
    "A Rose by Any Other. . " RedRoser's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Gotta be "that scrappy little kid from the wrong side of the tracks"---(from My Prison Without Bars)

    #14 Peter Edward Rose

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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    I would say Bench; Rose 2nd because some of his good years were not in Cincy.

  13. #42
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Bench by a length over Morgan.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    Limiting candidates to players I have actually seen, my vote goes to:

    Frank Robinson

    though I wouldn't begin to argue with any who say:

    Johnny Bench

    then again I wouldn't argue with any other choices either.....well, Ed Armbrister is a bit of a reach.

    My Dad would say Ernie Lombardi. Wish he were still here to do just that.

    No votes yet for Grady Hatton?????

  15. #44
    Member Number_Fourteen's Avatar
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    or Eppa Rixey?

  16. #45
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    Re: Best Cincinnati Red Player Of All-time?

    How about best pitcher??

    For great 1 year it was Dolf Luque in 1923 i think. Otal Baseball said it was a Top 10 type year in history of modern baseball.

    Bucky Walters had a great run 1939-1944.

    Best stuff might have been Jim Maloney.


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